Why you fold AJo from UTG

This hand is a good example of the reverse implied odds that you can suffer with hands like AJ.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero (t1455)
Button (t1445)
SB (t1360)
BB (t1340)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1935)
MP1 (t1230)
MP2 (t1810)
MP3 (t1425)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
UTG raises to t90, 4 folds, Hero calls t90, 3 folds.

Flop: (t225) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
UTG bets t120, Hero raises to t400, UTG raises to t1410, Hero calls t965 (All-In).

Turn: (t3000) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3000) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2955

Results below:
UTG has Ah Jd (two pair, aces and nines).
Hero has Kh As (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: Hero wins t2955.

Definately. Reverse implied odds is SO important to understand, especially early. Also a good example of why we flat call with AK from late position early.

Heres a good example of why we fold pretty looking but crap hands like KTo to a raise:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP (t1800)
CO (t945)
Button (t540)
Hero (t4635)
BB (t868)
UTG (t4712)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP calls t100, 2 folds, Hero raises to t400, 1 fold, MP calls t300.

Flop: (t900) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t600, MP raises to t1400, Hero calls t800.

Turn: (t3700) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)

River: (t3700) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t3700

Results:
MP has Th Kc (one pair, tens).
Hero has Ts Ad (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins t3700.

When you see AT/AJ UTG just pretend its A2o

Quote:

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UTG raises to t1410

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is far more ridiculous than open raising 3x with it.

yeah, I'm not sure this is about AJ UTG so much as 'play TP better' or even 'sometimes you get coolered'. Did he really play it any worse than you did? Any justification you have for stacking off can be used for his play as well.

that call with AK is crazy to me, makes me wanna move up from the donk stakes already >.<. seeing stuff like this makes me believe im not learning anything playing @ micro stakes.

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

yeah, I'm not sure this is about AJ UTG so much as 'play TP better' or even 'sometimes you get coolered'. Did he really play it any worse than you did? Any justification you have for stacking off can be used for his play as well.

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...apart from the fact that AQ and AK crush him whilst I crush AQ and AJ.

I guess the other point is that this illustrates that preflop is very important in SNGs. If opp is raising AJ from UTG, I'm not sure what flops he really wants to see other than AJx, AAx/JJx or KQT. If you had played as opp did preflop, how would you have played postflop?

Raising AJ from UTG is a problem, unless you're aware you need to slow down on the flop if you get resistance. If you're going to go AI on an A high flop with AJ, then you shouldnt be playing AJ. AJ v's AK on an A high flop is not coolered, its dumb play.

I'm fascinated to hear what range you're putting villian on to make the call with AK crazy DD.

This is just plain funny . . I love shoving AA first hand of any SNG let alone a turbo 18 man donkfest, it's probably not the best way to play it but sure is funny when this happens, and if they all fold then all's good. I shove mainly so someone thinks I'm a complete nutter and looks me up with such an appalling hand.

This is definately not how you should play AJo :lol:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero (t1500)
SB (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ah.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/as.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, MP1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1500, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t1480 (All-In), MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds.

Flop: (t3090) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qh.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/tc.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t3090) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3c.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3090) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/js.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3090

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Ac Jd (one pair, jacks).
Hero has Ah As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins t3090.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

I'm fascinated to hear what range you're putting villian on to make the call with AK crazy DD.

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I agree with DD that calling all-in with AK is a tough call.

Since hero flat called preflop, the villain's range is still extremely wide. The action on the flop could easily suggest the villain was playing 99, 66, or AA and hit his set. Given the two clubs on the board, the villain might decide to close out then and there if he believes hero might be 4 to the flush. Also, the villain might have been semi-bluffing with a speculative hand like A9s and was delighted to hit top two pair on the flop. A9s UTG is unlikely, but still within the range of some LAG opponents. For some reason, it tends to be a hand donks love as well regardless of position.

AJ isn't exactly a hand I would typically consider to be in an opponent's pushing range. Unless we know the guy's somewhat fishy, it seems more likely we're already beat by two pair or a set or playing against another AK.

So you've come up with 4 hands that destroy us, and ignored all other possible hands in his range because Opp only stacks off with a set or two pair? We call it a range for a reason.

Lets work on the rest of his range I'll ignore:

KK, QQ? Sure, plenty of people hate to let these go.

AT,AJ,AQ? Definately, most opps would assume we'd 3-bet PF hands better Ax's.

KQs? Lots of opps will semi-bluff a draw, whether they know the term or not.

Thats a pretty tight range. We're totally ignoring the possiblity opp will play suited crap like KJ and QJ, and assuming he'll lay down other PPs, which is probably fair at the $27s but at lower stakes I've seen worse.

Now we have a reasonable range, we compare to our odds to call, hero has to call 965 into approx 1,700 pot, making it a fairly easy call.

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Originally Posted by misterthou

A9s UTG is unlikely, but still within the range of some LAG opponents. For some reason, it tends to be a hand donks love as well regardless of position.

AJ isn't exactly a hand I would typically consider to be in an opponent's pushing range. Unless we know the guy's somewhat fishy

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Uh uh :tsk: we dont get to put A9s in his PF range if we're going to exclude AJ from his pushing range. Opp is either a donkey or not! Take A9s out and now we're down to AA, 99 and 66, thats a tiny range to put opp on...

AJ is trash early IMO , i rarely play it. If folded to in late position ill open the pot with it , if limped to ill usually limp in later position , but MP , UTG it's easy fold early on for me. Prob losing a little value by doing so in the 6.5's since they call raises with AceNeTiNg but meh.
Bjaust the A10 hand , why raise OOB here? Is MP a chronic High blind limper? If he had less chips (not 18bbs) i wouldn't mind a shove since BB only has 8bb and the rest folded but I'm really not trying to play for his 18bb stack unless i have a good read.

Not chronic, but the hands he's limped have been suited connector type crap. Once the blinds get up I hate letting anyone limp when I have a solid hand, definately not going to complete and play the hand from OOP. I'm happy if he folds here and I take the blinds + his limp.

Couldnt get a more perfect flop. I ahead of a HUGE range of hands he pushes over with here. To be honest KT is probably better than I expected he had, but it served as a great reminder of why we done limp crap like KT and definately dont call off nearly 25% of our stack PF with it.

If EliteMob is reading this, to continue the discussion we had on why we c-bet most flops, this is a great example. If villian knows we c-bet nearly every time we raise PF, then he cant put us on AT or overpair here. We could have almost anything and be c-betting this flop, which is why I say we're ahead of a huge range here. At least 20% of opps range is pure bluff, people love to shove over on these T and/or under flops.

I will also look at Sharkscope and determine if the player is a bonafied fish or profitable player. If it's a fish with a -31%ROI I'm more likely to call a push. If it's a tight player with a positive ROI, well then I know he isn't putting the tournament on the line with KT. Isn't it important to use the tools we have available to us to help make these decisions?

On my connection sharkscope is slow. I use reads to get ranges and ranges to get odds.

Against a solid winning regular who knows that I'm a winning player as well, I might just call the flop bet and see if he'll fire a second barrel on the turn (in which case I'm probably beat).

Against an unknown (which this guy was) or a donk, I'm raising the flop and going broke every time with AK TPTK.

Quote:

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If you had played as opp did preflop, how would you have played postflop?

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Sometimes I might c/c a couple streets here, maybe c/r the flop and then give up. Often I fold pre flop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by taipan168

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

yeah, I'm not sure this is about AJ UTG so much as 'play TP better' or even 'sometimes you get coolered'. Did he really play it any worse than you did? Any justification you have for stacking off can be used for his play as well.

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...apart from the fact that AQ and AK crush him whilst I crush AQ and AJ.

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you just called pre flop so you have a lot more aces in your range than he does and you're a lot more likely to have a draw ( I know you personally won't call with weak As and would never have a hand to semi bluff here, but he doesn't know that).

Slow playing AK is a risk, hands like this are why can be worthwhile, but if it had come AJ6 and then you sucked out I doubt this hand would be posted. In general I have a problem with the "Look he lost, don't do this" concept. Give some numbers if you want to talk about why we should or shouldn't raise AJ UTG.

Would you play AQ the same way you played AK here?

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Raising AJ from UTG is a problem, unless you're aware you need to slow down on the flop if you get resistance. If you're going to go AI on an A high flop with AJ, then you shouldnt be playing AJ. AJ v's AK on an A high flop is not coolered, its dumb play.

I'm fascinated to hear what range you're putting villian on to make the call with AK crazy DD.

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i was talking about the call preflop BJ

We flat call PF because we have position PF, and if we hit theres a good chance opp will c-bet anyway, and if we miss (which we do 2:3 times) we get away from the hand cheaply.

We flat call PF because we have position Post Flop, and if we hit theres a good chance opp will c-bet anyway, and if we miss (which we do 2:3 times) we get away from the hand cheaply.

or, we re raise pre flop and thereby become a huge favorite to win pot whether or not we hit.

as a bonus for tighter pre flop players, re raising AK pre flop increase your three bet range by about 50% since I assume you're only three betting QQ+

There are advantages both ways. I 3-bet AK pre about 90% of the time, but flat-calling here isnt wrong.

Another point is if we raise to say 300 pre and get called, the pots approx 600 and our stack is 1100. If we c-bet 400 and opp pushes over, we have to call 700 into 1800 pot, which even if we miss puts us in a difficult spot.

Been thinking about this in my shower (might be a bad sign). This is the type of play I've been trying to bring into my game, mainly on advice from Taipan in HHs he's reviewed. Isnt it driven largely by the SnG precept that chip conservation is more important than chip accumulation in STTs? Since we have the advantage of position postflop, we can keep the amount of chips we commit preflop small and then use position to our advantage after the flop?

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

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If you had played as opp did preflop, how would you have played postflop?

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Sometimes I might c/c a couple streets here, maybe c/r the flop and then give up. Often I fold pre flop.

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I can see c/c or c/r the flop, and I can see re-raising preflop (which has its positives and negatives) but why would you fold this preflop in position unless you had a read that opp would only raise AA or KK ?!?!?

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

In general I have a problem with the "Look he lost, don't do this" concept. Give some numbers if you want to talk about why we should or shouldn't raise AJ UTG.

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It wasn't meant to be a brag post, it was meant to illustrate the dangers of playing hands like A2-AJ from EP (ie. players will not always re-raise with hands that dominate you and there can be really bad reverse implied odds if you hit your A or J on the flop and lose your whole stack). I would probably still have posted it if he spiked a J on the river and I lost.

FS is right, the fact that opp went broke on the flop is probably worse than his preflop raise from UTG, but it does illustrate the point that if you are so bad at preflop that you stack off on an A or J high flop then you are better off just folding preflop.

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

Would you play AQ the same way you played AK here?

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Readless I would probably just dump it. If I had a read that opp was a bad LAGG I would call and play position and go broke on an A or Q high flop.

When I said "often I fold pre flop" it was in reply to you asking how I would play his hand (re read your question)

really just re read my whole post, the word brag was not typed. This isn't about you, it's about taking one hand with the exact worst possible result and declaring that the reason you shouldn't do something. I could make this same post when I had AA and you had 99 and it doesn't mean I played bad raising AA UTG. I know you know that but you seem to be ignoring it here.

Telling people they should not raise AJ UTG because of the calling ranges of those behind and how often you will be good in large pots is fine. Telling them not to because you stacked this guy encourages memorizing a hand chart and never deviating from it or even considering why it says what it says. If everyone at the table plays like you play, raising AJ UTG is not so great. If 4 people at the table would have put a bunch of money in this pot with AT the equation changes quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

When I said "often I fold pre flop" it was in reply to you asking how I would play his hand (re read your question)

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Sorry, I misread your post, and my original question you're right :oops:

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

This isn't about you, it's about taking one hand with the exact worst possible result and declaring that the reason you shouldn't do something. I could make this same post when I had AA and you had 99 and it doesn't mean I played bad raising AA UTG. I know you know that but you seem to be ignoring it here.

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I see your point about drawing a general rule from the specific, but your example is different because you are putting your chips in with a hand that can't be dominated preflop. If opp spikes a set on a flop and you have an overpair you are very likely going broke on the flop. In my case, opp is raising OOP with a hand that is often dominated (subject to your comment below about players calling with worse aces of course).

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

Telling people they should not raise AJ UTG because of the calling ranges of those behind and how often you will be good in large pots is fine. Telling them not to because you stacked this guy encourages memorizing a hand chart and never deviating from it or even considering why it says what it says. If everyone at the table plays like you play, raising AJ UTG is not so great. If 4 people at the table would have put a bunch of money in this pot with AT the equation changes quite a bit.

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Agree with this 100%.

The call vs 3-bet pre flop arguement i think depends on what stake your currently playing, which is why i said "seeing stuff like this makes me believe im not learning anything playing @ micro stakes."

that raise utg would get called by ATLEAST 6 people at micro stakes which would put u in a tough spot if u flat called along with everyone else .
versus 3 betting which would still probly get 1 extra caller, but u would be in a much better spot on the flop.

I'm saying if someone posted a hand where they lost with a big hand and called it "Why you open shove KK at 10/20" you'd be all over it. This post isn't any better because the underlying concept is correct (or at least more correct), and it encourages exactly that sort of results oriented thinking.

"That didn't work, I'll never do that again" is horrible.

"That didn't work, I wonder why, would it work again or with different stacks or opps or position or etc" is terrific.

If this was a long post about reverse implied odds with a couple example hands, OK. Instead, you don't even explain what reverse implied odds are.

DD, if there were multiple callers in front of us, hero will probably push.

drmc I see your point. It was obvious to me how Taipan meant it, but perhaps newer posters might see it how you're concerned they would.