use combined odds or seperate for each street?????

this is probably a stupid question,but i know that on the flop the odds on a flush draw are about 4 to 1,on the turn its a little more than 4 to 1,so i assume that you should these odds on each street to decide whether to call or not,but where my confusion comes in,is that i have heard of people using the combined odds for both streets...which is about 2 to 1.i cant really find anywhere that confirms this,but if the odds of the combined draws on both streets are 2 to 1,why wouldnt the 2 to 1 odds be sufficient...or am i missing something altogether.......thanks for any help.

Never combine the two, i can't think of a situation where it's necessary.

your odds of hitting your flush on the turn is 5 to 1. your odds of hitting your flush by the river from the flop is 2.5 to 1. keep the two odds separate.

i only use the 5 to 1 odds when I'm calling an all in on the flop or am trying to figure out if I have enough fold equity towards making a push on the flop with a draw, a profitable one.

ok..so going with the flush draw again...exactly what pot odds would be needed on the flop and turn respectively...i am sorry but i am still cofused..i thought it would be about 5 to 1 pot odds needed on flop and turn each...but i see where you also said something about the 2.5 to 1...thanks again

let me rephrase this......if i am getting the odds to call the bet on the flop.....4 to 1 for flush.....should i just be using that and assume i going to call to river anyway...or when i miss on turn and a guy bet the pot...turn around and fold because now the odds suck....correct or not?

You flop a flush draw. Guy bets out. Since it's 1 in 5 you make a flush on the very next card, the current pot (preflop pot + current bet by opponent) must be *at least* four times as large as the current bet you're facing in order for you break even / expect profit.

If the pot is 4x larger than the bet, the call is profitable on the math alone.

The same goes when facing a bet on the turn before the river (the odds are pretty much the same, only slightly better because of there are less non-outs left after the turn is exposed).

If facing an all-in wager, you need to be getting 2:1 or better to call.

The tricky part is trying to factor in "implied odds." If you think you can get more money out of your opponent after the flush comes (if it were to), then you can count that money (whatever you figure you'd be able to get out of him)as part of current pot. The effect of using these implied odds is that you make calls that you normally shouldn't make based on the "hard math," because you expect winning more later.

A long discussion can go on about the implied odds and flush draws and the differences between chasing a turn and chasing a river, and don't wish to explain much here.

Regarding implied odds though- don't pretend you have them all the time, or too much- you don't want to be making unprofitable calls. Think about the player and what he might call off, if anything.

edit: response to whopper: yeah, I'd probably fold on the turn even though I called on the flop. If he pots it before the river card, you're getting 2:1. Since you need 4:1, you would need to be able to acquire 2 more pot-sized bets (turn pots that is).

In other words, you would have to bet 2/3 pot on the river after the flush came and he would have to call reliably for you to BREAK EVEN. Sounds like shit to me. Then again, it's all player dependent, would the guy call got a pot-sized bet on the river? He may think you're full of it.

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Originally Posted by whopper1967

let me rephrase this......if i am getting the odds to call the bet on the flop.....4 to 1 for flush.....should i just be using that and assume i going to call to river anyway...or when i miss on turn and a guy bet the pot...turn around and fold because now the odds suck....correct or not?

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You're correct; unless the bet is small in comparison to the pot.

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Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Never combine the two, i can't think of a situation where it's necessary.

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when all in on the flop, you calculate X4. since there's no more betting, you dont need one street odds anymore.

thanks a bunch folks...i believe the last response was what i was really trying to ask,but didnt know how to word it........like if a guy bet enough on flop to put me all in,instead of needing the 4 to 1 odds for flush,then i would only need 2 to1 in the all in situation....is that what you are saying,since i have no choice on turn anyway?/.....thanks again.

sort of. yes, your "odds" are better because there will be no more betting, but its not 2:1.

9 flush outs. two cards to come (turn and river). no possible future betting. 9 outs X 4 (approx.) = 36% you still need roughly 3:1 to call.

9 outs. ONE card to come (turn with more betting, river). 9 outs X 2 (approx.) = 18% you need roughly 5:1 to call.

situation one is rare, though. also, remember that in situation one, you have NO implied odds to help your pot odds. the money is in, there isnt any leftover to win when you hit your draw...therefore, no implied profit.

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Originally Posted by Chopper

9 flush outs. two cards to come (turn and river). no possible future betting. 9 outs X 4 (approx.) = 36% you still need roughly 3:1 to call.

9 outs. ONE card to come (turn with more betting, river). 9 outs X 2 (approx.) = 18% you need roughly 5:1 to call.

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36% is 2:1. we win (roughly) 33% of the time and we lose 66% so we lose twice for every one time we win.

18% is 4:1. We win (rougly) 20% of the time and we lose 80% of the time so we lose 4 times as often as we win.


Also with something like a nut flush draw you have the Aces as outs some of the time aswell.

my bad. that one always gets me. at least i miss on the conservative side. MY draws are always profitable...lol.

once again..thanks a bunch guys....lets recap here......a flush draw is roughly 4to1 with 1 card coming,2to1 if you are put all in on flop..open ended straight is 5 to 1 and 2.5 to 1 respectively......inside straight approsx12 to 1 and 6 to 1......and as long as i am not all in on flop,of i get good odds on flop,and then the guy gets friskie and lays me...lets say only 2 to 1 pot odds on turn,then the proper play would be to fold.from what ive seen...looks like you will get to draw alot on flop and get shut out on turn....i know this doesnt take into account any implied odds...thanks again folks :D