Tools For Cheating?

A quick question for you all. What do you think about poker sites and forums that allow you to enter IM details in your profiles?


I won a MTT last night but at the final table some dude was writing gobblydook in the chat box. When I asked him what he was doing he said he was chatting with a friend on messenger and the applications kept getting mixed up.

Now, I am not very suspicious by nature but he had the same placename as someone else on the table, suggesting they came from the same town. That said, none of their play was suspicious and they weren't real friendly in the chat box.

Are you scared of people cheating by using messenger, or do you think that I am just being paranoid?

I have posted this in some other forums as well but I'd appreciate knowing what you guys here think. You hear so much about cheating that I suppose I am getting worried now.

I think this happens quite a lot and I wonder how much can be done against it.

Maybe pokersites keep track of which players are often at the same table or tournaments and if you suspect someone you can always report it.

Collusion happens very often. I had two friends that would do it, and I've even done it with them, playing high stakes S&Gs together. Just try to keep an eye out for it. For example, I always check where everyone is from, and will leave a table with multiple people living in the same home town.

There isn't much online poker sites can do to stop this from happening. There are just too many ways for people to communicate to stop. Like stated above, reporting players is probably the best defense, but even then, it's hard to prove.

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Originally Posted by kpreston

Collusion happens very often. I had two friends that would do it, and I've even done it with them

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ummm.... ban?

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Originally Posted by Pelion

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Originally Posted by kpreston

Collusion happens very often. I had two friends that would do it, and I've even done it with them

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ummm.... ban?

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+1

it makes NO difference if players are from the same town. geez. this is the internet after all.

my brother lives in KC. i live in STL. i have a friend in Ontario. another in Curacao. i met a chick from Vancouver. one in Detroit. hell, they guy posting above me must be from Ohio. i know of another fellow golfer in Houston. a couple from the UK. i know a guy from Toronto. and another in the military that bounces around every couple of years.

hmmmmmmm. guess what? we are all FTR's, and none of us collude. but, if we decided to, it wouldnt be hard. and NONE of us live in the same damned town.

horrible "tell."

I have the reverse collusion problem. Every time me and a mate get into the same sng together we both donate our chips to other people while trying to bust each other for giggles. Hysterical but expensive.

I know Party Poker has a way of detecting relationships between people. I doubt it goes all that deep, but I do know that it wouldn't let me play at the same table as my brother/girlfriend. Which was annoying. Although I obviously understand why they don't let you.


And, just because they weren't being friendly with each other at the table, doesn't mean they aren't friends.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

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Originally Posted by kpreston

Collusion happens very often. I had two friends that would do it, and I've even done it with them

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ummm.... ban?

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ummm.... over-reaction?

Chill, that was over a year ago. I don't collude, I was just stating that it most definetely happens in online poker.

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horrible "tell."

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I wasn't trying to state that it was a "tell," nor was I trying to tell people that I'm all wise and mighty and know the ways of poker. It's just the way I let my paranoia get the best of me. Not everyone is going to be in the same state, or even country, while colluding, but it helps weed out the 1 guy with 7 computers camping a single table for free money.

i just pictured the guy running around his room trying to click fold on all his computers before the timer expired on the one with AA.

i had to laugh.

Obviously he shouldn't fold on all his computers. He should bloat the pot.

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Originally Posted by kpreston

Chill, that was over a year ago. I don't collude, I was just stating that it most definetely happens in online poker.

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Whatever. I dont like cheats. I dont like people who used to cheat. I dont like people who have that little integrity, and I dont think we should be polluting our site with people like them (read you).

cheating is for pussies!

I referred my wife to Party from my old account to take advantage of the $75 bonus for the $50 deposit. Have since been playing under that account. My plan was to give my brother in law that live in a different town my old acct info then sit down at a table and transfer over the $60 I had in the original acct. No can do. I'm not sure if it was b/c the accounts were same last name user's or the refferral or w/e so I just blew the $60 playing 7 card stud. Never played it before and it was fun but not my game :oops: The sites are definitely trying to cover collusion but I think it's just a weak blanket rule for basic account info.

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Originally Posted by Dude_Here

I referred my wife to Party from my old account to take advantage of the $75 bonus for the $50 deposit. Have since been playing under that account. My plan was to give my brother in law that live in a different town my old acct info then sit down at a table and transfer over the $60 I had in the original acct. No can do. I'm not sure if it was b/c the accounts were same last name user's or the refferral or w/e so I just blew the $60 playing 7 card stud. Never played it before and it was fun but not my game :oops: The sites are definitely trying to cover collusion but I think it's just a weak blanket rule for basic account info.

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Why not just transfer the money through the Party site? Or you can just create a private table and play with whoever you want on it.


Also, obviously it isn't 100%, but it would be just about impossible to catch all people colluding. Unless you had some sort of super smart computer system that could figure it all out...
Detecting name matches and other things isn't a bad idea. Also, I believe it detects if you have transferred money to a person before. I gave my girlfriend some from my account to play with her, but it wouldn't let us sit down at the same table.

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Originally Posted by shazbox

I gave my girlfriend some from my account to play with her

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And before anybody beats me to it....yes...I have to pay my girlfriend to play with her. You should see what I have to do to get her to play with me.


And of course I am talking about poker.

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Originally Posted by Chopper

it makes NO difference if players are from the same town. geez. this is the internet after all.

my brother lives in KC. i live in STL. i have a friend in Ontario. another in Curacao. i met a chick from Vancouver. one in Detroit. hell, they guy posting above me must be from Ohio. i know of another fellow golfer in Houston. a couple from the UK. i know a guy from Toronto. and another in the military that bounces around every couple of years.

hmmmmmmm. guess what? we are all FTR's, and none of us collude. but, if we decided to, it wouldnt be hard. and NONE of us live in the same damned town.

horrible "tell."

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Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Holla Choppa!

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Originally Posted by shazbox

Why not just transfer the money through the Party site? Or you can just create a private table and play with whoever you want on it.

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I was a noobie. To transfer acct to acct you have to do some sort of verification and become a preffered player. My wife isn't interested in doing anything to help out and I didn't (nor do now) know how to make a pvt table.

I don't worry about it. Maybe thats naive, but I'm cool with that.

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

I don't worry about it. Maybe thats all you can do, but I'm cool with that.

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its obvious fakenick is me, fakenick2 is my friend :) It's from 2006 and i never play with any friends anymore =) obv.

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PokerStarsSupport <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello Fakenick,

Based on a routine review of your account which indicated unusual play
patterns, we have started a more in depth review of your account and
play. At this point we must ask that you provide us with some
information that will help us to resolve this issue.

First, please review the hands attached below and explain your
strategy/thinking during the play of the hands.

Next, please explain in detail your relationship, if any, to the
player 'Fakenick2'.

Your account privileges have been suspended pending the outcome of our
review. Please respond fully and completely within 48 hours. Your
cooperation will help to bring the matter to a close promptly.

Regards,

Dan C
PokerStars Support Team



**What was your thinking on this hand when you folded your AK preflop, to
no action?**

PokerStars Game #10295276297: Tournament #52164397, $10+$1 Hold'em No
Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/06/06 - 01:08:15 (ET)
Table '52164397 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 3: Fakenick2 (5520 in chips)
Seat 6: northwood (3210 in chips)
Seat 9: Fakenick (4770 in chips)
Fakenick2: posts the ante 25
northwood: posts the ante 25
Fakenick: posts the ante 25
Moving Bets to Pot
Fakenick: posts small blind 200
Fakenick2: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to Fakenick [As Kd]

01:08:17 northwood: folds
01:08:18 Fakenick said, "ly o i AK"
01:08:23 Fakenick: folds
01:08:23 Moving Bets to Pot
01:08:27 Fakenick2 collected 475 from pot
01:08:27 Fakenick2: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 475 | Rake 0
Seat 3: Fakenick2 (big blind) collected (475)
Seat 6: northwood (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Fakenick (small blind) folded before Flop





**Why would you fold your AQs here before the flop, facing no action?**

PokerStars Game #10419443526: Tournament #52784019, $10+$1 Hold'em No
Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2007/06/13 - 17:27:09 (ET)
Table '52784019 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Fakenick (4245 in chips)
Seat 2: STANKELBEN (555 in chips)
Seat 3: ClintmanJJ (2630 in chips)
Seat 5: Fakenick2 (3520 in chips)
Seat 8: i82QBFiP (2550 in chips)
ClintmanJJ: posts small blind 75
Fakenick2: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to Fakenick [Qh Ah]

17:27:13 i82QBFiP: folds
17:27:31 Fakenick: folds
17:27:36 STANKELBEN: raises 405 to 555 and is all-in
17:27:36 ClintmanJJ: folds
17:27:39 Fakenick2: calls 405
17:27:39 Moving Bets to Pot
17:27:42 *** FLOP *** [Tc Ac Ts]
17:27:46 *** TURN *** [Tc Ac Ts] [8h]
17:27:48 *** RIVER *** [Tc Ac Ts 8h] [Ks]
17:27:50 *** SHOW DOWN ***
Fakenick2: shows [Kh Kd] (a full house, Kings full of Tens)
17:27:50 STANKELBEN: shows [Jd Qs] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
17:27:53 Fakenick2 collected 1185 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1185 | Rake 0
Board [Tc Ac Ts 8h Ks]
Seat 1: Fakenick folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: STANKELBEN (button) showed [Jd Qs] and lost with a straight, Ten
to Ace
Seat 3: ClintmanJJ (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Fakenick2 (big blind) showed [Kh Kd] and won (1185) with a full
house, Kings full of Tens
Seat 8: i82QBFiP folded before Flop (didn't bet)




**What was your thinking on this hand when you folded your pocket aces
before the flop?**

PokerStars Game #10424343784: Tournament #52808312, $10+$1 Hold'em No
Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2007/06/13 - 22:52:10 (ET)
Table '52808312 1' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Soup11 (2430 in chips)
Seat 3: Fakenick (5365 in chips)
Seat 7: Fakenick2 (5365 in chips)
Seat 8: megabv (340 in chips)
Fakenick: posts small blind 75
Fakenick2: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to Fakenick [Ah As]

22:52:14 megabv said, "good god"
22:52:17 megabv: folds
22:52:17 Soup11: folds
22:52:28 megabv said, "i have seen some lucky idiots"
22:52:30 Moneystream: folds
22:52:30 Moving Bets to Pot
22:52:33 Fakenick2 collected 150 from pot
22:52:34 Fakenick2: doesn't show hand
22:52:34 megabv said, "nothing like this"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 150 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Soup11 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Fakenick (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Fakenick2 (big blind) collected (150)
Seat 8: megabv folded before Flop (didn't bet)

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Dunno why they said i had a losing record as i had grinded my way to over 1k :( Prob losing record when i was playing with my friend =)

Quote:

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Hello ZwiFT,

The review of your account and your play with 'Fakenick2' is complete.
We
have come to the conclusion that you and 'Fakenick2' worked together as
a
team to the detriment of other players in events where you played
together.

The integrity of our games is critical to the success of PokerStars.
Based on our findings, we have decided that your account will remain
closed. Such action is not taken lightly. My findings went to a
review board made up of other poker specialists who, after looking at
the evidence, agree that such action is appropriate.

This conclusion is based on a careful review of your play with all
cards exposed. In reviewing hands it is clear that you routinely
passed chips to one another as needed to help the shorter stack
survive. In addition there were many examples of soft play.
Tournament rule #9 states that "Poker is an individual (not a team)
game. Any action or chat intended to help another player is unethical
and is prohibited. Unethical play, such as soft-play and chip dumping,
may result in penalties, including seizure of funds from the
offender's account and/or termination of the account.".

The fact that you have an overall losing record is not a
consideration. Unfair play cannot be tolerated regardless of the net
result. The funds remaining in your account will be used to
reimburse players affected by unfair play. You are barred from future
play at PokerStars.

Do not attempt to open another account or play using someone else's
account. Any account you use is subject to being closed without
notice.

Regards,

Dan C
PokerStars Support Team

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Nah no worries here either. Sure, it happens but its probably rare that you actually run into it.

A few years ago when I was new to poker I did this with a friend. We thought we were hot shit and really onto something (had no idea it was illegal)

*sings* one of these things is not like the others */sings*



Seat 1: Soup11 (2430 in chips)
Seat 3: Fakenick (5365 in chips)
Seat 7: Fakenick2 (5365 in chips)
Seat 8: megabv (340 in chips)
Fakenick: posts small blind 75
Fakenick2: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to Fakenick [Ah As]

22:52:14 megabv said, "good god"
22:52:17 megabv: folds
22:52:17 Soup11: folds
22:52:28 megabv said, "i have seen some lucky idiots"
22:52:30 Moneystream: folds
22:52:30 Moving Bets to Pot
22:52:33 Fakenick2 collected 150 from pot
22:52:34 Fakenick2: doesn't show hand

I hope they didn't let you keep your money, Moneystream.

I think the messenger can be a good thing. Although it is hard to determine tells online, the messenger windows can help give you some knowledge of the other players. People who talk a lot and then get quiet all of a suddent are probably holding a strong hand and want to concentrate on the action. Try to stay away from these guys.

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Originally Posted by dons72384

I think the messenger can be a good thing. Although it is hard to determine tells online, the messenger windows can help give you some knowledge of the other players. People who talk a lot and then get quiet all of a suddent are probably holding a strong hand and want to concentrate on the action. Try to stay away from these guys.

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Talking about instant messengers I think, not the chat box on the table.

I believe chats are definitely a large reason there are some many programs that try an cheat the game

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Originally Posted by BostonGuy

I believe chats are definitely a large reason there are some many programs that try an cheat the game

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uhmmmm.... what?

Honestly, I'm so concerned with getting banned, etc. that when friends come over and we play sessions on multiple comps, I insist that we don't play in the same games. It's so easy to track IPs that it would just be stupid to collude from the same connection. I think most of the big tourney players that got busted for using multiple accounts in the same tourneys (this was a couple years ago) were probably busted because of the single IP on multiple accounts. That said, if the two players colluding are on different IP addys, they're not likely to get caught unless they are reported MULTIPLE times.

They were busted because someone narc'd on them, not because they had the same IPs.

ppl that collude are usually pretty bad at poker anyway, so i wouldnt worry about it

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Originally Posted by Dude_Here

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Originally Posted by shazbox

Why not just transfer the money through the Party site? Or you can just create a private table and play with whoever you want on it.

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I was a noobie. To transfer acct to acct you have to do some sort of verification and become a preffered player. My wife isn't interested in doing anything to help out and I didn't (nor do now) know how to make a pvt table.

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Shaz, I don't know exactly what you meant, but you can get BOTH accounts frozen by "transferring" money in a private game between two accounts by intentionally losing with one. It's cheating, although not especially harmful, and it's an easy thing for the sites to pick up on. I think their big concern is criminal "transfers" of funds between poker accounts, and they're probably focused on the big $$ accounts. But their software will pick it up even if it's $60.

Also, I believe y'all are underestimating the sophistication of their tracking methods and capabilities. The problem for them is the sheer number of colluders. With 10 ppl on a site, there are 10! = 3.6 million ways to form a 2-way cheating partnership. Imagine the possible cheating arrangements with thousands of players playing millions of hands in a single day - no way to detect cheating with random search algorithms. But as soon as they have any reason to be suspicious, they can quickly track/identify collusion.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

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Originally Posted by kpreston

Chill, that was over a year ago. I don't collude, I was just stating that it most definetely happens in online poker.

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Whatever. I dont like cheats. I dont like people who used to cheat. I dont like people who have that little integrity, and I dont think we should be polluting our site with people like them (read you).

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+1

The "it's not a big deal chill out" reaction bothers me even more than the original cheating.

Cheating happens, it's just another thing to consider when you figure out how good a game is.

anyone have a take on the "sweating" software? the stuff that allows you to see another players hole cards while you watch from afar.

isnt that just one technological step away from super-user accounts?

disclaimer: this is something i heard someone mention. i have no idea that something exists that allows you to see a buddy's cards. and, i have no idea if the sites already know about this. i can only assume they do, and have taken measures to make sure you cant sit at the same table?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

anyone have a take on the "sweating" software? the stuff that allows you to see another players hole cards while you watch from afar.

isnt that just one technological step away from super-user accounts?

disclaimer: this is something i heard someone mention. i have no idea that something exists that allows you to see a buddy's cards. and, i have no idea if the sites already know about this. i can only assume they do, and have taken measures to make sure you cant sit at the same table?

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no software can show the hole cards that are not revealed in the HH
actually, the only software that can do this, is the SU account
and SU accounts can't play in a hand, and is not available for john doe

Let them cheat. I'm too good to be beat. They're only delaying the ineivitable. :wink: