Bankroll Management Rant

I'm so tired of these ungrateful little shits complaining about how they don't want to follow bankroll management guidelines because it's boring or they don't have the patience to grind out a decent bankroll or whatever. These excuses are bullshit and you're just donating to the poker economy so on the behalf of the majority of FTR regulars, I thank you for padding my bankroll.

Seriously, do you realize what you're saying? I mean, what's the thought process on this one? "Oh it's so horrible, if I'd just stop acting like a total retard for a couple of months I could make a few hundred dollars screwing around playing online poker for a few hours each week LIKE I ALREADY FUCKING DO."

Why do people continuously screw themselves out of so much money over and over and over again? I mean, I can completely understand guys who are new to poker and don't really understand the need for bankroll management. Hell, I can even understand guys who have plenty of money to blow and feel like giving some of it to me. But what about the average joe who feels like $300 is a lot of money, but consistently gives up the opportunity to make that much or more weekly from a hobby he already takes time out to do?

Here's an example. Let's say you grind up to the dizzy heights of $100nl over the period of a few months and 8-table full ring (which I think is roughly the same hands/hour as 5 or 6-tabling 6max depending on the site). Also, let's say you play 8 hours a week and make 1.5 ptbb/100 which is an okay but not great win-rate. Well you'll get in about 4000 hands a week, which is an extra $120, or $15/hour. That's not bad at all for a hobby. Hell, that's not even counting rakeback which would give you another $8-10/hour or so, bringing you to around an extra $200 a week on just 8 hours of play. That's half or more of a lot of peoples pay checks who hang around this forum.

So you deposit $25, donk around and move up and down stakes as much as possible. Maybe you cash out $100 or so here and lose your $25 buyin a few times there. Is all of that fucking around worth giving up an easy opportunity to make $25/hour or more with the same hobby you already have?

If the answer to this question is yes, and you make less than that at your job (or you don't have a job), then you're a dumbass and you won't get anything out of this anyway.

If the answer to this question is no, and you're one of the retards who have been doing the kind of shit I've been talking about here, then stop being a retard or whatever and make some damn money.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

The point of all of this is that having good bankroll management is sooooo right. There's so much into it. It yields higher skill improvements, more profit, and less stress among tons of other things. There are so many reasons to follow good bankroll guidelines, and so many reasons not to jump around and gamble it up that it's ridiculous that anyone who has been on this forum for any length of time would want to do anything different unless they had a gambling problem or something.

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:D

Good rant!

awesome post - i seriously LMAO the whole way through this !!

This rant smacked me down so hard that I started playing 1/6th of my BR on a table instead of 1/2.

Thx spoon!

Try 1/20th, k thanks

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Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

Try 1/20th, k thanks

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Hell that just means he's up to 6-tabling.

It's arrogance. I've completely fallen for the idea of bankroll management only because I've flushed away money that, at my level, is too much to wave goodbye to.

Like Worm said in Rounders: "I got so good with this that I thought I could neutralize it".

This being just good enough to actually be able to make money in poker by running with the basics and skills. No matter how good you are, without the bankroll it's a nightmare.

A.

nice

sorry dude didn't mean to be the straw. but i had to find out whether it was cool to go ahead and move up or not. if it makes you feel any better (not that you really care either way) i am going to stick with the grind until i hit the $250 mark and then i'll take stabs at 10NL. anyways i def appreciate you posting your advice even though it obv pains you. and that goes for everyone else too.

Though I don't follow complete text book BR management I've learned throughly what good BR management can do to ride out those inevitable downswings. I thank the poker gods for the day I learned BR management.

Great post.

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Originally Posted by iolzizlyi

sorry dude didn't mean to be the straw. but i had to find out whether it was cool to go ahead and move up or not. if it makes you feel any better (not that you really care either way) i am going to stick with the grind until i hit the $250 mark and then i'll take stabs at 10NL. anyways i def appreciate you posting your advice even though it obv pains you. and that goes for everyone else too.

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Don't feel bad, there's been tons of people who follow the description before you.

And to be honest, it wasn't your post that sparked this =P

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

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Originally Posted by iolzizlyi

sorry dude didn't mean to be the straw. but i had to find out whether it was cool to go ahead and move up or not. if it makes you feel any better (not that you really care either way) i am going to stick with the grind until i hit the $250 mark and then i'll take stabs at 10NL. anyways i def appreciate you posting your advice even though it obv pains you. and that goes for everyone else too.

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Don't feel bad, there's been tons of people who follow the description before you.

And to be honest, it wasn't your post that sparked this =P

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I don't know what sparked this, but I've enjoyed this discussion and referred a couple of other posts to this one and the previous one it launched from. Spoon, I wanted to add two things.

First, I've got friends who think nothing of spending $500 on golf. Great, it's a hobby you enjoy. Poker is different - it's a hobby that we can expect to be revenue neutral and which, if we just employ a bit of discipline, we can actually make money with. A hobby that not only pays for itself, but pays back extra. Dayam, that's cool. Participate if you'd like. If not, donate to those of us who are.

Second, a lot of us lack the "pro" mentality. I've enjoyed your posts about your win rate, level, and goals for 2008. I got inspired and set some goals for 2008 as well ($100 in profit + $100 additional br each month). But I have this dangerous way of looking at sessions.

For an example of a "losing player's mentality", I told the wife this morning that "I won $73 last night." It's true, sort of. I ground out 1k hands of NL10 and was up 7 BI afterwards. But you know what? I really just won my typical 6 ptBB/100. And when I drop 3 BI in a session, I'm really just earning my typical 6 ptBB/100. Every hour I play, if I play optimally, I'm just earning my historic win rate / 100 hands. Hopefully, I'm doing slightly better if I'm learning to play better. But too many people focus on the $$/session and not how well they played.

The really valuable thing each session would be to focus on the following:
1. playing optimally
2. increasing my learning curve by working an one aspect of my game each session
3. not worry about the sessions' ups and downs
4. just count the grinding hours and multiply by BB/100 win rate and think of that as the session's earnings

Keep it coming, Spoon, any more rants building up? Post more soon :twisted:

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Originally Posted by Robb

Second, a lot of us lack the "pro" mentality.

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That's fine too. What bothers me is people who continually jump around stakes and bitch about it later, or who stick to good bankroll guidelines and grind up a $50 deposit to $500 or so and then "take a shot" at 600nl and go busto in half an hour.

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Originally Posted by Robb

For an example of a "losing player's mentality", I told the wife this morning that "I won $73 last night." It's true, sort of. I ground out 1k hands of NL10 and was up 7 BI afterwards. But you know what? I really just won my typical 6 ptBB/100. And when I drop 3 BI in a session, I'm really just earning my typical 6 ptBB/100. Every hour I play, if I play optimally, I'm just earning my historic win rate / 100 hands. Hopefully, I'm doing slightly better if I'm learning to play better. But too many people focus on the $$/session and not how well they played.

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I couldn't agree more. This is something that probably every player who is serious about poker to any degree faces, and I think it's perfectly natural to feel this way at first since poker is very anti-intuitive in terms of results with respect to how well you play. It's just another one of those things you'll eventually adjust to.

BR management sux. Don't you all know the more underrolled you are, the better cards you get?

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Originally Posted by Robb

For an example of a "losing player's mentality", I told the wife this morning that "I won $73 last night." It's true, sort of. I ground out 1k hands of NL10 and was up 7 BI afterwards. But you know what? I really just won my typical 6 ptBB/100. And when I drop 3 BI in a session, I'm really just earning my typical 6 ptBB/100. Every hour I play, if I play optimally, I'm just earning my historic win rate / 100 hands. Hopefully, I'm doing slightly better if I'm learning to play better. But too many people focus on the $$/session and not how well they played.

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this is the way we are supposed to think right here.

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Originally Posted by Chopper

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Originally Posted by Robb

For an example of a "losing player's mentality", I told the wife this morning that "I won $73 last night." It's true, sort of. I ground out 1k hands of NL10 and was up 7 BI afterwards. But you know what? I really just won my typical 6 ptBB/100. And when I drop 3 BI in a session, I'm really just earning my typical 6 ptBB/100. Every hour I play, if I play optimally, I'm just earning my historic win rate / 100 hands. Hopefully, I'm doing slightly better if I'm learning to play better. But too many people focus on the $$/session and not how well they played.

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this is the way we are supposed to think right here.

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I don't necessarily disagree with Chopper but I think there are better ways. However, I think that what Robb said is a step along the way towards what I think we're "supposed" to think about our session: almost a total disregard for actual results, but instead total focus on how we played and improving our game.

Of course, it's easier said than done if you don't know that you're a winning player, but I believe it's part of the process.

Depending on the wording this could mean the same thing for some people, but just thought I'd throw it out there.

I agree.. nice posts spoon.

I'll even take it a step further... for a serious player... bankroll shouldn't even be an issue for games in which you are regularly playing. What I mean by that is say you have $4k and want to know if that's enough for 1/2. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't (I'd argue that it most certainly isn't). More importantly though, if you're good enough to be playing 1/2, then you should be able to grind out a LOT more than that at lower limits, and by the time you start playing it, the size of your bankroll should be more than adequate for it.

I think this applies much more to seasoned players who have logged tons of hands than someone trying to aggressively climb the 'tree' so to speak. In the latter case, the experience of playing more hands will help develop you as a player which is more important than short term profit anyway.

So...quick question...I now won a decent amount of money playing in Full tilt's 750k donkament. Busted a pro(I johnny channed his ass, it felt good to see a pro donk bet me when I had the nuts) and placed fairly high up.

I'm wondering, it still doesn't feel like I have any skill whatsoever cause pretty much all I did was fold any hand that wasn't like...stellar and stole a couple blinds here and there cause of my image. uhm...am I reasonable fit to play in .25/.50 cent now that I've come across this?

Now i'm almost BRed for .50/1 but I feel weird about just jumping that high up.

And in case you were wondering how a n00b got into the 750k sat I did the torturous thing of playing the 300 FTP point Sit and gos till I got a spot. Anybody want to see bad poker and suck outs? Play this.

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Originally Posted by R3537

So...quick question...I now won a decent amount of money playing in Full tilt's 750k donkament. Busted a pro(I johnny channed his ass, it felt good to see a pro donk bet me when I had the nuts) and placed fairly high up.

I'm wondering, it still doesn't feel like I have any skill whatsoever cause pretty much all I did was fold any hand that wasn't like...stellar and stole a couple blinds here and there cause of my image. uhm...am I reasonable fit to play in .25/.50 cent now that I've come across this?

Now i'm almost BRed for .50/1 but I feel weird about just jumping that high up.

And in case you were wondering how a n00b got into the 750k sat I did the torturous thing of playing the 300 FTP point Sit and gos till I got a spot. Anybody want to see bad poker and suck outs? Play this.

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If you can't beat 10nl and 25nl there, then you don't need to play any higher until you can. Otherwise you're just donating your money back into the poker economy.


And Lukie I agree 1000%

I can add in a big thank you for re-iterating this. I just worked my way up from $250 to $500 by playing 6 max $25 NL under rolled. Starting playing around with $50 and $100 tables both 6 and FR and am now starting a grind plan with some new game with the $200 still left in my acct.

TY

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Originally Posted by Lukie

I'll even take it a step further... for a serious player... bankroll shouldn't even be an issue for games in which you are regularly playing. What I mean by that is say you have $4k and want to know if that's enough for 1/2. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't (I'd argue that it most certainly isn't). More importantly though, if you're good enough to be playing 1/2, then you should be able to grind out a LOT more than that at lower limits, and by the time you start playing it, the size of your bankroll should be more than adequate for it.

I think this applies much more to seasoned players who have logged tons of hands than someone trying to aggressively climb the 'tree' so to speak. In the latter case, the experience of playing more hands will help develop you as a player which is more important than short term profit anyway.

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Great point, lukie. I wish I were better at focusing on maximizing LONG TERM poker profits. I'm on ultra-life/poker tilt right now, and donated $50 to the tilt hole over last 4 days. Thanks to effective br management, that's insignificant to my long term prognosis - but for me poker tilt always stems from focusing too much on now and not enough on later.