5NL: TPTK and OESD hands

very first hand on table.

Hand 1:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 ($5.12)
MP2 ($3.76)
MP3 ($4.34)
Hero ($5)
Button ($3)
SB ($8.69)
BB ($5.81)
UTG ($10.51)
UTG+1 ($3.84)

Preflop: Hero is CO with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/6d.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/5d.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.05.
5 folds, Hero (poster) checks, Button calls $0.05, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.20) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/7h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ah.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.2, Hero calls $0.20, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: ($0.60) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/5h.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.4, BB calls $0.40.

River: ($1.40) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/9c.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.9, BB calls $0.90.

Final Pot: $3.20

question that gives hand away:
do microstakes players ever fold a pair of aces?

i got a bit cautious after the flop min raise because last time (similar flop against different opponent) i shoved over and the guy showed aces up to my AK. when he checks turn i figure i'm good but i don't wanna get raised again. am i usually beat when he fires river?

Hand 2:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 ($5.93)
MP2 ($5.75)
Hero ($5)
Button ($10.25)
SB ($5.66)
BB ($7.61)
UTG ($5.25)
UTG+1 ($8.52)

Preflop: Hero is CO with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ks.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ah.gif.
UTG calls $0.05, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.3, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.25, MP1 folds.

Flop: ($0.72) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/8c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ac.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.45, UTG raises to $0.9, Hero calls $0.45.

Turn: ($2.52) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/th.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($2.52) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/js.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $1.2, Hero ?

My two cents...

1) Why are you calling the flop? You only have 6 clean outs, so nowhere near the pot-odds to call. Then the 3rd heart hits on the turn, leaving you with a potentially DOA OESD and 3rd pr w/ a bad kicker. I'm guessing BB had Ax, tried to price you out of a potential draw on the flop, and then called you down to see the showdown as cheaply as possible.

2) Call unless you have some really good read not to. At these limits, you'll see people doing all kind of crazy sh!t. I can't see laying down TPTK to a half-psb bet on the river. He could very easily be chasing Ax or Kx, saw your check on the turn as weakness (i.e. your flop bet was just a cbet) and trying to buy out the pot. He could be sitting on AJ, AT or KQ. There's also a sh!t load of other stuff such as Ax or Kx. Not flush draw to worry about. So I'm calling.

Hand 1: Raise preflop, especially since you posted the blind out of position. As played, be careful about draws like this since you only have six clean outs because of the possible flush draw out there. The turn and river are bad at 5nl since nobody is folding an ace at these stakes.

Hand 2: Bet the turn. His check raise on the flop might seem scary, but after his check on the turn there is still a really good chance that you're ahead, so you don't want to let villain suck out. As played, you have to call the river since you're getting better than 3:1 odds to do so.

Edit: I want to clarify what I meant in hand 1 when I said, "Raise preflop, especially since you posted the blind out of position." Here you have suited connectors in the CO with no one in the pot before you and there is an extra big blind out there to win. I wasn't implying that you should raise every time you post a blind out of position or anything like that.

hand one: what do you mean, "does anyone ever fold an A?" YOU NEVER RAISED!! WHY WOULD HE? you gave him no reason to think his weak A wasnt good. i raise pf, and cbet/raise him on flop. as played, i dont have any problem with calling two streets. (yeah, no pot odds, but with the fact "players never fold an A here...your implieds are HUGE). but, that river call wasnt good at all.

hand two: RR the flop. that minraise is just stoooopid. its likely a flush draw, set, two pair, air. you just dont know. you are WA/WB here, and into that kind of minraising crap, i want to know while its cheap and before i give myself a chance to get sucked out on. check behind on turn is super weak, for your hand. and, you almost have to call that river. if you let KQ get there, its your fault for not being more aggressive, imo. btw, if you RR the flop (making sure you deny flush odds), and get called, you pretty much shut down after that...looking for a cheap showdown.

just my .02

i guess i should explain hand one. it was more of an experiment. i know my flop call was bad but i figured my implieds were decent? i had position on him so when he checked the turn, i had put him on pretty much what he had and wanted to try to bet him off the best hand. especially since the flush showed up and the board straightened out. bad thinking?

on hand two i called and won but i wasn't happy about it. he had flopped a gutshot. and the AJ or AT was what i was worried about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iolzizlyi

i guess i should explain hand one. it was more of an experiment. i know my flop call was bad but i figured my implieds were decent? i had position on him so when he checked the turn, i had put him on pretty much what he had and wanted to try to bet him off the best hand. especially since the flush showed up and the board straightened out. bad thinking?

on hand two i called and won but i wasn't happy about it. he had flopped a gutshot. and the AJ or AT was what i was worried about.

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On the first hand, it's not that the turn is *bad*, it's just bad at 5nl. The river was bad period though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iolzizlyi

i had put him on pretty much what he had and wanted to try to bet him off the best hand. especially since the flush showed up and the board straightened out. bad thinking?

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I think your average player at these stakes isn't going to lay down top pair in a hand like this unless you bet pot or more, and even then it's not a sure thing. They aren't thinking "oh there's a possible flush or straight, he must have one of them to keep betting", they're thinking "i have top pair, it's not even a dollar, i call".

Also FWIW if they were a thinking player it's still hard to put you on something that made a straight, you'd need to have called the flop with 86 or 63 for the gutshot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nickthefool

they're thinking "i have top pair, it's not even a dollar, i call".

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you know i thought about that on the river as i was clicking the bet button. and i think if i were to bluff the flush (which was my main bluff, the straight was in the back of my mind though), i should have been betting more? i knew he was going to call the turn bet and i was ready to fire the river. but i don't think i fired enough on either street.

spoon is this still a bad play if i had potted both streets?

oh yeah he had like A6 so i could have had any number of hands that would beat him.

The river is bad because he either has an A or a draw and you beat all missed draws with your 5 (except not many of the drawing hands missed), and Aces don't fold. It would be alot better if you only had 6 high and the flush hadn't come. Then you'd be folding stuff like K:heart: X :heart: which beats you if you check it down.

Hand 1: I don't mind the flop call, your draw is well disguised and he's probably not going to fold an Ace on later streets so there's good implied odds. But...given that you called the flop on the basis that he's not going to fold an Ace when your draw hits, why would you now decide that he is in fact going to fold it?

Hand 2: Flop is fine but you have to bet turn when he checks to you. c/r flop, check turn is very rarely a strong hand and far more likely a draw which you need to charge. As played you have to call river getting 3:1.

Quote:

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do microstakes players ever fold a pair of aces?

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Sometimes they do, but don't count on it.

Based on that information, don't spew in tiny, limped pots and bet the turn in hand #2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ultros8

given that you called the flop on the basis that he's not going to fold an Ace when your draw hits, why would you now decide that he is in fact going to fold it?

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point taken. no idea what i was thinking.

so how common is it for someone to c/r the flop and the turn? and what might it mean? i don't think i've ever seen this play so this is purely speculative.