5/10: weird spot, call for probable split?

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12-14-2007, 06:20 AM
pocketfours

5/10: weird spot, call for probable split?

Villain is unknown 31/19, not very good. KK is in his range, but not in mine. I don't see him having a worse hand here and I got the feeling that he was slowplaying the flop (AK/KK). Turn check? River?

Seat 1: SB ($1,094.00 in chips)
Seat 4: BB ($1,050.00 in chips)
Seat 7: UTG ($774.00 in chips)
Seat 8: HERO [ AD,JD ] ($1,210.00 in chips)
Seat 9: CUTOFF ($1,113.00 in chips)
Seat 10: BUTTON ($2,365.45 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($5), BB posts blind ($10).

PRE-FLOP
UTG bets $20, HERO calls $20, CUTOFF folds, BUTTON folds, SB calls $15, BB calls $10.

FLOP [board cards AS,AC,KH ]
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, HERO bets $55, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $55.

TURN [board cards AS,AC,KH,KS ]
UTG checks, HERO checks.

RIVER [board cards AS,AC,KH,KS,JH ] (pot $190)
UTG bets $699 and is all-in, HERO...
12-14-2007, 06:38 AM
ChrisTheFish

Hahah, i looks so much like KK with that river bet... i dunno if you can fold tbh, probably not.
12-14-2007, 01:00 PM
zook

One combination of KK and 4 combinations of AK, so if you think that's his entire range, it's a fold. If you think he could have AQ or anything else then it's a call. I usually call but I guess it's close.
12-14-2007, 01:01 PM
mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

One combination of KK and 2 combinations of AK, so if you think that's his entire range, it's a fold. If you think he could have AQ or anything else then it's a call. I usually call but I guess it's close.

FYP, and fold
12-14-2007, 01:13 PM
zook

oops, missed op's ace :oops:
12-14-2007, 06:04 PM
IowaSkinsFan

The only reason I'd call is if my donation was tax deductable.
12-15-2007, 05:44 AM
pocketfours

What hands are we shoving if we are villain? Isn't a good player supposed to shove any ace and KK here?
12-15-2007, 10:52 AM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

What hands are we shoving if we are villain? Isn't a good player supposed to shove any ace and KK here?

But shouldn't it be the opposite as well. Any good player should go for a check raise here, because any hand that can CALL a shove will bet themself? Like if he checked to you, you'd bet here right?
12-15-2007, 11:43 AM
pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

What hands are we shoving if we are villain? Isn't a good player supposed to shove any ace and KK here?

But shouldn't it be the opposite as well. Any good player should go for a check raise here, because any hand that can CALL a shove will bet themself? Like if he checked to you, you'd bet here right?

I would absolutely not even consider betting if he checked tbh.
12-15-2007, 12:30 PM
Numbr2intheWorld

I don't really think a villain who raises min UTG is very smart, but if you really think he is shobing all the aces in his range, then i mean i guess its a call, i would never make that assumption though.
12-15-2007, 12:46 PM
sauce123

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

What hands are we shoving if we are villain? Isn't a good player supposed to shove any ace and KK here?

this is a rly easy fold and its not close
12-15-2007, 04:23 PM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

What hands are we shoving if we are villain? Isn't a good player supposed to shove any ace and KK here?

But shouldn't it be the opposite as well. Any good player should go for a check raise here, because any hand that can CALL a shove will bet themself? Like if he checked to you, you'd bet here right?

I would absolutely not even consider betting if he checked tbh.

wow really? Would anyone else check through here?

Certainly there can be room to get value from a bare K here?

I would definitely be betting in this spot of checked to... is that bad?
12-15-2007, 05:27 PM
jackvance

Risk $700 to win $95.. so he has to have KK less than 12% of the time for a call to be any good. Fold..
12-16-2007, 05:20 AM
pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

What hands are we shoving if we are villain? Isn't a good player supposed to shove any ace and KK here?

this is a rly easy fold and its not close

Well yes I did fold and thought it was trivial, but against a good player who knows that AA/KK isn't in my range, I just wonder what kind of odds would be needed to call?
12-17-2007, 01:54 PM
sauce123

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

What hands are we shoving if we are villain? Isn't a good player supposed to shove any ace and KK here?

this is a rly easy fold and its not close

Well yes I did fold and thought it was trivial, but against a good player who knows that AA/KK isn't in my range, I just wonder what kind of odds would be needed to call?

well hes just not gonna float you oop on this board so after the flop call we have to narrow his range considerably. which leaves a majority of hands which are slowplaying- and then river just looks like a trap "lol he might have an ace sick slowplay ME" so against anyone who you suspect is thinking on this level id imagine I fold if Im not getting 2 to 1 or so.

against a good player who is shoving any ace or KK we kind of have to ask ourselves why he wouldnt bet this flop with a made hand given second best ones are out there and he would cbet this flop from utg with a high frequency. so really im going to put him on either ace/rag that didnt want to build a large pot- or KKKK. so really i think 2 to 1 is about the break-even point without doing the math.
12-17-2007, 06:07 PM
pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

What hands are we shoving if we are villain? Isn't a good player supposed to shove any ace and KK here?

this is a rly easy fold and its not close

Well yes I did fold and thought it was trivial, but against a good player who knows that AA/KK isn't in my range, I just wonder what kind of odds would be needed to call?

well hes just not gonna float you oop on this board so after the flop call we have to narrow his range considerably. which leaves a majority of hands which are slowplaying- and then river just looks like a trap "lol he might have an ace sick slowplay ME" so against anyone who you suspect is thinking on this level id imagine I fold if Im not getting 2 to 1 or so.

against a good player who is shoving any ace or KK we kind of have to ask ourselves why he wouldnt bet this flop with a made hand given second best ones are out there and he would cbet this flop from utg with a high frequency. so really im going to put him on either ace/rag that didnt want to build a large pot- or KKKK. so really i think 2 to 1 is about the break-even point without doing the math.

2 to 1 sounds decent. Don't forget AK still...
12-27-2007, 04:09 AM
BankItDrew

If villain has 4 kings, their turn check has got to be the worst turn check I have seen in my whole life.
01-09-2008, 09:33 AM
chris_k14

Would he raise preflop that small with KK AK or are these his standard raises? If not i think you have to call river as any ace could be in his range if he is a true donkey.