Frustration and bad Opponents - A Love Story

Hi all, probably a very pointless post and you know it all already. Newbies may find benefit from it and if nothing else, it is quite cathartic just writing it.


Whilst I wait for some money to come through before making a decent deposit at a site of choice and as I want to enter the GUKPT, I decided to join BlueSQ in the meantime. Then I started playing freeroll MTTs on my old site and got hooked so I made a token deposit of £40 with a view to playing the $1 - $3 MTTs. I did, I lost and having been enticed by some $5+ MTTs, pretty quickly had just $26 left.

With no MTTs to play, I hopped into the $2 SNGs and quickly hit some horrendous beats and all on the river: a nut flush beaten by a full house, a straight beaten by a flush and top 2 pair beaten twice by a gutshot. Down to $16 I then hit form and my hands held - taking me up to $70. Since then, I've played a fair bit and finished in the money on far less than my usual 50%. And as a result, it is a constant fight to keep my BR ticking over at $65.

Now, I can whine about bad beats all day long. I can point out that on all of these occasions, the opponents were not only betting preflop with hands they really shouldn't but also continuing to hold onto them when they were well beaten - then striking lucky. Furthermore, I can complain how this "all in on a draw" mentality is typical of $2 stakes and that it's a minefield where the best play and best hands don't win as often as they should. Most of all, I can point out that my hands are no longer holding up and the beats are becoming the norm. In fact - just now. I hold J9. Flop is Q9J7. I have been called all in by the pre flop/post flop aggressor and his play stinks to high heaven. I call. Guy flips over KA. I am in great shape. The river is a 10.


However.....


If I (or anyone) is serious about their poker and going pro or what have you then this is what it's about. If it's variance then a few days is going to be nothing in the grand scheme of things when you can run bad for weeks and even months.

It is SOOOO tempting to go and jump into some $10 games - I can make the money back and more - but if I can't adhere to basic BR guidelines with this token deposit at a stop gap poker site then how can I be expected to stick to the guidelines with a more substantial deposit and when there is far more riding on it than just the cost of a few beers?

And if I let some $2 bad beats get to me then what chance at the bigger stakes on my site of choice?

I am also open to the fact that I may have taken my eye off the ball as I have been multi tabling. In tiled view, the tables are very small and not user friendly and I misread A4 for AA. Whenever I lost a tourney, my play immediately improved on the remaining table but I know that multi tabling is going to be essential to making the money so it's better to lose small than big whilst I adjust. Maybe it's easier in cash games than tourneys as there's no knockout format? And I am certain the tiled screens are better at other sites. the FTR vids at PokerStars look decent - and the same as full size screens. At ipoker, they go ultra tiny and ultra shitty.

And when I get bad beat, I so want to berate and check their sharkscope stats out. But where will that get me - apart from further on tilt? It's hard, I admit. But it is my aim not to whine to anyone about bad beats.

So yeah, big picture. If success is wanted at poker then this is the stuff that will make you or break you.


And for that reason, I am getting a perverse satisfaction out of sighing, then reloading another SNG, at the measly $2 level when even a solitary 3rd place finish in a $10 event will rejuvinate my BR.

Hi Thunder,

Good post. One of the hardest lessons to learn is that poker is a long term game and if you play better than your opponents, the results will come. There will be lots of variance along the way, but it is a mathematical certainty that when you get your chips in with the best hand, you will win in the long run.

Come post some hands/tourneys in the SNG forum. I don't mean to make it sound like you're not playing well, but on occasion I have posted hands/tourneys where I thought I played perfectly but it was quickly pointed out to me that I just didn't.

Hi Taipan,

I was about to post this in the SNG section.

Sure, there will be massive leaks in my game, I know that, it's why I am here ;)

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WPP: 194

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are you and breathweapon having a contest? :lol:


seriously, listen to tai and post more hands

see sig below

Just another story about poker's most dangerous villain: the hero himself.

Next time you insta- register for a tourney way above your roll to make some easy dough, do yourself a favor and kick your own ass.

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Originally Posted by Thunder

I am also open to the fact that I may have taken my eye off the ball as I have been multi tabling. In tiled view, the tables are very small and not user friendly and I misread A4 for AA. Whenever I lost a tourney, my play immediately improved on the remaining table but I know that multi tabling is going to be essential to making the money so it's better to lose small than big whilst I adjust.

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Originally Posted by Thunder

Sure, there will be massive leaks in my game, I know that, it's why I am here ;)

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First things first. Get your game in order, THEN think about multitabling. Start adding tables when you reach the point where most of your decisions are automatic (yet correct!) and getting reads is second nature. After you get there, find rooms/mods that make smaller windows readable, mistaking A4 for AA is probably as -EV as can get. Play as many tables as you're comfortable with, not as many as some crazy robot here says you should.

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Originally Posted by bigslikk

Next time you insta- register for a tourney way above your roll to make some easy dough, do yourself a favor and kick your own ass.

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Next time you insta reply to a topic you haven't read, let alone understood, do yourself a favour and kick your own ass.

Doing so ensures you don't make a grand dick of yourself, in public, by being spectacularly off tangent with everything you wrote and everything you inferred.

And then you wouldn't need me to kick your ass all over this forum, explaining in BIIIIG letters - so that you finally grasp the thread - that there wasn't a buy in bigger than my BR, that there was no make easy dough thinking at work and that it was written in a very positive manner.

And just in case that last point could be overlooked, it was mentioned at the start, in the middle and at the end.

Hell, even the title gave it away!

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Originally Posted by bigslikk

Just another story about poker's most dangerous villain: the hero himself.

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No, just another story about poker's most dangerous villain: the muppet who can't be bothered to read or is just too thick to comprehend simple sentences of plain English. Yet somehow feels justified in passing comment.

Ignorance, ineptitude or illogic - take your pick as your crowning achievement.

Cocco, I am experimenting with multi tabling now - with money I have set aside for general experimentation - so that I can build my concentration levels for when I am ready to do it for real.

And my game is sufficiently in order for me to try multi tabling - which is only 2 tables - as I am comfortably winning at my stakes on single tables.

The entire $40 deposit was just for fun - happy to blast it in one night - with no BR adherence. Only when I made money, and lost some, did I have the temptation to go higher to win it back. And that is when I reasoned that if I can't stick to a BR with a token, fun deposit then I've no chance when I try for real. It's avery fun and character building exercise to resist that allure.

Thunder,

Just another story about poker's most dangerous villain: the hero himself.

is pretty much spot on, I think. This whole post (and many before it) have been about recognising how easily you tilt - in fact, your initial comments proves you have a kind of perma-tilt attitude:

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Originally Posted by Thunder

some horrendous beats and all on the river: a nut flush beaten by a full house, a straight beaten by a flush and top 2 pair beaten twice by a gutshot.

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A full house has up to 10 outs, a flush has up to 9 outs, and even a gutshot has 4 - only the last even counts, realistically, as a bad beat (go to the bad beat forum and post a flush losing to a boat story - you'll be laughed out of town). The point is, these are not horrendous bad beats. More to the point, you have repeatedly said you're not bothered by bad beats and then you not only focus on them in your posts, but you say things like:

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Originally Posted by Thunder

it's a minefield where the best play and best hands don't win as often as they should.

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and

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Originally Posted by Thunder

Most of all, I can point out that my hands are no longer holding up and the beats are becoming the norm

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No. Good hands DO win as often as they should, and bad beats AREN'T becoming the norm. You can't have it both ways: either you accept and understand, as you claim, that bad beats are a fact of life:

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Originally Posted by Thunder

then this is what it's about. If it's variance then a few days is going to be nothing in the grand scheme of things when you can run bad for weeks and even months.

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or, you adhere to a belief that you're fundamentally unlucky, or poker is rigged, or some other illogical, unmathematical excuse. You can't have it both ways!

It is indeed cathartic writing about all this - some people think writing about bad beats is a bad thing, but I agree that it can simply help to get the momentary annoyance of your chest. What it DOESN'T excuse is claiming that "bad beats are becoming the norm".

Other points:

I also agree that you should cut your number of tables until completely comfortable and sure in your fundamentals. You're at stakes where your return is very small, so no need to worry about not maximising your winrate - for every newcomer to poker it's far more important to develop a winning game first. So if you play better poker where you can learn more by one or two tabling, then one or two table.

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Originally Posted by Thunder

I can complain how this "all in on a draw" mentality is typical of $2 stakes

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This is the wrong way round. All in on a draw is a very strong, worthwhile tactic you will find at all levels. Or are you just talking about people who call with draws, rather than pushing all in themselves? Often this is a function of small stacks in tournaments. It's frustrating when they lose but are you really complaining about a situation where you stack someone two times out of three? You should holler in wild delight when a donk calls off his stack with a draw! You should also make sure you're aware of combo draws - an overcard, for example, adds up to three valuable outs which can make a big difference in odds calculations, particularly as part of a semi-bluff.

Looking at the example you give - J9 vs AK. I assume you called a raise PF with J9s is late position, then pushed over the dude's c-bet? Well played, assuming stacks were deep enough. It's safe to assume this guy thinks he has between 8 and 20 outs here (more if you have shown you're able to bluff in this spot - this could well be a great place for Tx to semi-bluff, say), so were you giving him bad odds to call? Even if you were, and it's an undeniable bad play, it's far from the worst you'll see.

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Originally Posted by Thunder

it is my aim not to whine to anyone about bad beats.

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I think this is wise - it'll help your game and ensure you focus on areas in which you can improve. Another thing which will help you focus is not getting so enraged when people make ill-judged or inaccurate comments in reply to your posts - it'll just add to the victim mentality you're in danger of creating for yourself. As soon as you blame your troubles on others, you won't be able to see when the problems originate with you.

Btw that was composed before I read your last post so ignore the bit about multi-tabling.

great response biondino. It almost sounds like you really want to believe what you read here regarding bad beats but you don't actually realise its affecting you in the way it is. I might be way off mark but thats how your posts come across.

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Originally Posted by Thunder

It is SOOOO tempting to go and jump into some $10 games - I can make the money back and more - but if I can't adhere to basic BR guidelines with this token deposit at a stop gap poker site then how can I be expected to stick to the guidelines with a more substantial deposit and when there is far more riding on it than just the cost of a few beers?

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This is the part of your post I was responding you. I was not attempting to "punk" you through my post. I was trying to tell you that all the troubles with bad beats, negative variance, and problems that occur within the game are meaningless if you have no bankroll management. Stop worrying about the results, however unfair, and worry about your decisions, and the things you can control (BR, table selection, staying off of tilt)

I know that a poker player is his own greatest obstacle because I've made, and still make (albeit with less frequency) some really dumb decisions after a big win or a big loss when I have less self-control. Included: playing much more "exciting" bigger games that I shouldn't have been; going to the blackjack table, and then of course playing poker like shit (a negative, but lesser consequence).

And for the reccord I did read your entire post, but it all honesty I didn't feel that the paragraphs about bad beats and bad luck earned a direct address. Anyone who posts here with any kind of regularity at all knows that bad luck / negative variance / "kid-with-magnifying-glass God altering probablility to end their dreams of appearing at the WPT final table in Aruba" threads spring up multiple times a day, and are tired of responding.

Just think of the absurdity of everyone's claiming to have bad luck, a disproportionately high amount of bad beats, and long streaks of negative variance. I'm not saying that such events are impossible; it's just impossible for everyone to experience them all the time (which seems to be the case given the amt. of posting on the topic). Hell, I believed that I was unlucky in poker til I realized how stupid my thinking was, and what's more, how stupid worrying about it was.

The plain truth about bad beats is this: everybody gets their fair share, and they suck. That's all.

Tilting will cause you to play terrible, and out of your roll. I cannot think of two worse consequences that prevent a player from making money. My response to your post is, and was, a reminder to control your emotions.

Get your money in as the favorite and your job is done, the rest is pure luck.
If you have the best hand you either win or get a bad beat. If you have the worst hand you either lose or suck out.
If there were no bad beats, the bad players would stop playing.

Learn to love bad beats, they make us money.

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

Learn to love bad beats, they make us money.

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BTW multitabling cash is much harder because remembering every action is more important imo, as are reads, stats....

thunder,

beware of the attitude i have, too. not permatilt, but permathinskin when people are really only trying to help while injecting a bit of humor at your expense.

Guys,

Thx for the responses and apologies to Bigslikk - not because I feel he is right in what he said and I was wrong but because his response was genuinely warranted due to the impression he got from my post. In fact, most of you have got the same impression. Ergo, though I find it hard to believe, I did not communicate myself very well.

Once again, apologies.

The main thing you all seem to have gotten is that I was complaining about bad beats - but I wasn't! That was the quintessential aspect of my entire thread!

Let me address one by one. This will be long so just skip to your name for ease of reading :)

Most will be addressed to Biondino as he wrote the most in reply.



1) Biondino

Without going into past posts that I can't remember, I can honestly tell you that there was no tilt in the examples provided. Remember, I dropped £20 ($40) just for some MTT fun on a Friday night. This money was meaningless, as were the stakes I was playing at.

The examples given of where I was beaten and I count as bad beats did not go into detail as I am trying to get my post length down. And to be honest, I also didn't think I'd have to go into detail to explain why they were harsh. But when all were done on the river, where most had called the all in before they made their hand and included calling pre flop betting with hands that were so weak as to be laughable, then I do count as a bad beat, or at the least, unlucky.

For example with the nut flush beaten by a full house, the guy holding 33 called a pre flop raise and a reraise. He was the last to act each time and there were still 4 people in the pot.

The flop came bearing flush draws and major overcards, more betting and raising and still he called with just a lowly pair of 3s. The turn came pairing kings and more furious betting. He still called. Can you honestly say you'd think your 3s were good in this situation? Finally, the river came with a 3 and he made his full house. I didn't see that coming. I certainly couldn't legislate for anyone holding pocket 3s and even if I did know his cards, down to just 4 outs to make the boat, is slim.

With the straight beaten by the flush, the guy called an all in with just 3 to the draw. His starting hand was 62 and the flop brought QKJ.He caught runner runners.

And with the gutshot beating top 2 pair twice, each time the villains needed a 6, which duly came on the river. Again, just 4 outs and had committed himself way before that.

Now, perhaps I am wrong, but to me, getting your chips in when miles ahead, and being called by a wing and a prayer is harsh. Not the baddest of beats I've experienced (that was when I had quad 4s beaten by quad 10s) but still bad.

of course, there is statisitcal chance that they could win, but that is obvious, but being beaten when you're over 90% to win with just one card to come, that chance is still minor.


As for my state of mind you say: "but you say things like: it's a minefield where the best play and best hands don't win as often as they should."
No I didn't. I said that I could say that - if I was so inclinded to feel sorry for myself and wallow in tilt and self pity. And I could blame luck, rigging or what have you for my misfortune. I could - but I don't - because I truly don't believe this and am not bothered by the beats. They are a part of the game. I got my chips in when way ahead yet accept that poker can still throw up that 1 outer to beat you despite the overwhelming odds of you winning.

The point is, my post was to illustrate that I am looking at the big picture and that in the long run, my hands will hold up. If I am a 90% favourite then overtime I will win 90%. Simple.


Thunder wrote: "Most of all, I can point out that my hands are no longer holding up and the beats are becoming the norm".

No. Good hands DO win as often as they should, and bad beats AREN'T becoming the norm. You can't have it both ways: either you accept and understand, as you claim, that bad beats are a fact of life:

That's just it - II don't want it both ways. Again, in this example you cited, I actually stated that I could moan and whine that bad beats are the norm and that I could take the easy way out and blame everyone under the sun. But that is just it, I am not doing so because I truly do accept that even a one outer can triumph and I truly do understand that the best hands WILL hold up over time. There is no small picture thinking of "I've been bad beaten in the past 5 games - the world is against me" because I may go on and win the next 50.....and suck out in 20 of them!

And it also shows that bad beats proves you made the right play - but just got unlucky. And that these are the guys you want to be playing week in, week out.


Thunder wrote; "then this is what it's about. If it's variance then a few days is going to be nothing in the grand scheme of things when you can run bad for weeks and even months."

or, you adhere to a belief that you're fundamentally unlucky, or poker is rigged, or some other illogical, unmathematical excuse. You can't have it both ways! "

And once again, I don't want it both ways. This very statement of mine, which you've mistaken, was meant as a clear indication that variance is real, that bad beats do occur and that for anyone wanting to get serious about poker, they have to be prepared for long periods of bad luck. My point here was if you're gonna bitch over 3 days of bad beats then you have no right to countenance ideas of turning professional or even semi pro - because these guys can, and do, run cold for much longer than a few days.


I was making the point that you have to be prepared for long streaks where it seems you can't win in an empty room - and that you must have the finance behind you to support you when that occurs. Again, it was to show the big picture and to show that that is where I am at - hence no worry or tilt.

And that is significant because in my early posts - as Chopper and Ash noted at the time - I was displaying only short term thinking.


It is indeed cathartic writing about all this - some people think writing about bad beats is a bad thing, but I agree that it can simply help to get the momentary annoyance of your chest. What it DOESN'T excuse is claiming that "bad beats are becoming the norm".

The catharsis was not from getting anything off my chest but in being able to put it all in perspective. When I opened my post with "you all know this already" it was meant that you all know what I am going to discuss: variance, bad beats are a way of life, you must have the big picture in mind etc.

The purifying came from "getting it" and from not tilting or feeling the site is rigged, from not getting emotional or castigating the poker gods and then kicking the cat. The big picture was there and it pleased me to ackowledge it. So when I was having that run of hands being beaten on the river, by hands that shouldn't even be there, and that went all in with nothing concrete and chance against them, the realisation that I wasn't fazed and that I had moved up a level in the way I approach the game was overwhelmingly positive.


Thunder wrote:
"I can complain how this "all in on a draw" mentality is typical of $2 stakes"

This is the wrong way round. All in on a draw is a very strong, worthwhile tactic you will find at all levels. Or are you just talking about people who call with draws, rather than pushing all in themselves? It's frustrating when they lose but are you really complaining about a situation where you stack someone two times out of three? You should holler in wild delight when a donk calls off his stack with a draw!

I know it's the wrong way round - and I thought I made that clear in my thread. I know it's wrong - and that is why I am not doing it! It's all to show that I've developed and am thinking the right way round. Ie: I could think that if I wanted to, and blame the stakes level, but I know it's not true so I won't. This entire post was not to preach to the converted but 1) to show I am growing and 2) to be useful to any more noobies who may be suffering from 'Small Picture, I'm Losing And It's Not My Fault' syndrome.

Yes, I am talking about the guy calling me on just a draw and yes I know I will be stacking up 2/3 times. That is why there was no tilt and that is why I was so pleased to just be able to dispassionately fire up another SNG.......because I know he got very lucky and that in the long run, I take his chips.


Thunder wrote: " it is my aim not to whine to anyone about bad beats."

I think this is wise - it'll help your game and ensure you focus on areas in which you can improve. Another thing which will help you focus is not getting so enraged when people make ill-judged or inaccurate comments in reply to your posts - it'll just add to the victim mentality you're in danger of creating for yourself. As soon as you blame your troubles on others, you won't be able to see when the problems originate with you.

Again, I thought this was pretty clear. If I am not wanting to whine then why would I do so here? I was trying to point out that whining is not on my agenda and that this post is anything but a rant.

As for getting enraged at others, out of 100+ posts, I believe this is rare. In fact, I can only recall firing back at two people. You were one, in the MTT section, and even that was not done in rage but just simple and calm matter of fact. I admit I was angry in my reply to Bigslikk because as he was so off the mark with what I had written, and took it all the wrong way, I believed he was making asinine and dismissive remarks without valid reason. And that got me uber angry.




2) Bigslikk

Hopefully, if you have read the above, then it should be clear why I reacted the way I did and thought that you were being exceptionally argumentative and patronising.

The section that you quoted is as clear as day to me and I can't see how you took it any other way. But you did, as did others so I cannot do anything but apologise and re explain. Basically that example illustrated that I am thinking of the big and not the small picture and that to be serious and profitable, BR adherence will be essential - even if it means dropping down a level. I am not giving in to the short term mentality of playing at bigger stakes for instant rewards.

That section was me saying that "I could do that - and it is tempting - but it is wrong".

Again, this to me is obvious in the section you quoted: and that if I can't stick to BR now when it's just for fun, then how can I when I am being more serious?

And yes, you are right not to worry about things out of my control - and that was the entire point which has been lost in me posting. I was explaining how I have that self control and how anyone else who enters this forum after me, is going to need the same.

I mean, why would I assume noobies would get any benefit from a poor loser whining? I mentioned, at the start, that noobs may get benefit because it was the complete opposite of feeling sorry for myself and short term thinking.


Anyone who posts here with any kind of regularity at all knows that bad luck / negative variance / "kid-with-magnifying-glass God altering probability to end their dreams of appearing at the WPT final table in Aruba" threads spring up multiple times a day, and are tired of responding

And this is why I am stunned that you all thought I was doing the same. My entire post and point was the complete reverse of this. It was to say I could be narrow minded and go down that line of thinking but it's not useful, it's not even true and it's not healthy for any long term future in poker. My aim was to explain this to other noobies and to illustrate how I have transcended such blinkerdness.

And that is why I reacted the way I did when you replied because you were going down the route I thought I had made pertinently clear was the opposite of what I was doing.


The plain truth about bad beats is this: everybody gets their fair share, and they suck. That's all. Tilting will cause you to play terrible, and out of your roll. I cannot think of two worse consequences that prevent a player from making money.

And once again, I made this very allusion in my thread and is why I just fired up another SNG - devoid of tilt and within the confines of my roll instead of signing up to the more tempting $5 and $10 SNGS I usually play.


I am honestly astounded that my OP was taken so wildly off tangent but it was so it must (unbelievable as it is) be down to my communication. Anyway, hopefully it' all sorted now.

you got very thin skin. this is not a good trait to have in the poker jungle

One thing you must remember, and everyone must remember, most poker players at the micro and small stakes games think poker is gambling. They come to gamble. Half of them probably play the lottery, bingo and/or slots/craps/keno. The way they play represents that. Keep in mind 90% of their poker experience is from TV, and the out of context, big blinds, meta game type of infrequent hands shown on TV. Your job is to grind your way out of this mine field of gamblers, dreamers and fun junkies by thinking long term. Play the math, play smart and grind. Where do you expect to find these types of people other than the micro stakes. Well they are everywhere, even at the $109's, $5/$10 ring and the $109 rebuys. If you don't learn to shrug it off at $1, $3 and $5, you will lose your mind at the nosebleed stakes when some kid with his mom's inheritance sucks out on your $5K pot with K9soooted.

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Originally Posted by biondino

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Originally Posted by Thunder

some horrendous beats and all on the river: a nut flush beaten by a full house, a straight beaten by a flush and top 2 pair beaten twice by a gutshot.

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A full house has up to 10 outs, a flush has up to 9 outs, and even a gutshot has 4 - only the last even counts, realistically, as a bad beat (go to the bad beat forum and post a flush losing to a boat story - you'll be laughed out of town). The point is, these are not horrendous bad beats. More to the point, you have repeatedly said you're not bothered by bad beats and then you not only focus on them in your posts

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I keep trying to remind myself that the bad beats that can hurt my game worst are the ones where I get my money in way behind - and suck out. Some times I get outplayed, and I get my money in bad. That's rare. Usually, I make some boneheaded mistake, get my money in bad and lose a stack. The poker lesson is learned from the pain of paying dearly for the mistake.

But two nights ago, I get all-in w/ TT against AA. Looking back, I had suspicions I was behind two betting rounds before the chips went it. I played it very badly and sucked out by hitting a T on the turn. But I will be lucky to learn the correct lesson because it caused no pain.

I often wonder that no one discusses this point about bad beats. When we track out own suckouts, we find out two very important things. First, we get our money in bad all too often, and we can avoid some of them. Second, the poker gods do screw our opponents over to benefit us. That's good, as it evens out some of the "variance," but it's a danger if we don't analyze our play when it happens.

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Originally Posted by Robb

I keep trying to remind myself that the bad beats that can hurt my game worst are the ones where I get my money in way behind - and suck out.
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I often wonder that no one discusses this point about bad beats. analyze our play when it happens.

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Good point well made.