50NL - Passively played boat?

Printable View

11-06-2007, 03:27 PM
grnydrowave2

50NL - Passively played boat?

I originally posted this in my op thread, and I've received conflicting opinions on how I played it. Not much is known about villain, he's 19/13/1.6 over 30 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($50)
UTG ($86.80)
Hero ($68.90)
SB ($21.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, BB calls $3.

Turn: ($10.25) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $6, BB raises to $12, Hero calls $6.

River: ($34.25) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets $9, Hero calls $9.

Final Pot: $52.25

I call villain's turn raise with the intention of getting all in on 5th street, but the river card throws a wrench into my plan. Weaksauce?
11-06-2007, 04:03 PM
bigspenda73

wow shove the river
11-06-2007, 04:08 PM
bode

how exactly does the river card hurt? are you really that worried about 5c8c/8cTc? Shove that shit!

also, pm me your stars name
11-06-2007, 04:11 PM
grnydrowave2

My concern is that the river card destroys villain's calling range. If he has something like 5c4c or A6 he won't call a shove. I think he's mostly calling with hands that beat mine.
11-06-2007, 04:15 PM
grnydrowave2

Ha, my Stars name is no secret. astuteNacute.
11-06-2007, 04:24 PM
holdin2

An unknown: He could have played AQ with Ace of clubs this way. Might not know to raise and think that minraise crap is pushing you off with his tp+draw. Might have flopped a flush. River bet might be thinking you not 4 betting turn has you drawing to a flush too. Who knows.

I would raise something on the river atleast. That'd be real passive way to play 66/QQ on that flop. Pay it off. Calling to see how he played whatever he has may pay off later if you think he's gonna fold.
11-06-2007, 04:29 PM
mixchange

Quote:

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

My concern is that the river card destroys villain's calling range. If he has something like 5c4c or A6 he won't call a shove. I think he's mostly calling with hands that beat mine.

all the more reason to get the money in on turn
dude if you are scared of going broke here either
1) you are underolled
2) you will not win money playing poker. FH's are crucial value extraction

all in at any point in the hand

even if you are beat here (which would mean villain also played his hand badly) you played it badly by not going AI
11-06-2007, 04:47 PM
gabe

omg nooooooooooooooooooooooooo
11-06-2007, 04:50 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

My concern is that the river card destroys villain's calling range.

Your hand is too strong to worry about this.
11-06-2007, 04:56 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

omg nooooooooooooooooooooooooo

lol my thoughts exactly
11-06-2007, 05:06 PM
grnydrowave2

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

Quote:

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

My concern is that the river card destroys villain's calling range. If he has something like 5c4c or A6 he won't call a shove. I think he's mostly calling with hands that beat mine.

all the more reason to get the money in on turn
dude if you are scared of going broke here either
1) you are underolled
2) you will not win money playing poker. FH's are crucial value extraction

all in at any point in the hand

even if you are beat here (which would mean villain also played his hand badly) you played it badly by not going AI

You're out of line and incorrect on both counts. Also, I'm never "scared" of anything in poker, I'm simply trying to make good decisions. I didn't ask for judgments of my character, I've posted a hand for discussion.

Obviously, shoving the turn is the better play in hindsight. I considered that as well, but I decided that it would be easier to get all the money in on 5th street. I'm confident that villain will lead out on the next card, and 3-betting all in on the turn is huge display of strength and I don't want to scare him off. Most of the time, I think this line is the best method of extraction.

If the river card is a blank, I'm not afraid of stacking off to QQ, 66, or a SF because I'm getting payed off by flushes, trips and sometimes even top pair often enough to be +EV.
11-06-2007, 05:15 PM
martindcx1e

chill out wave. mix obviously was not judging your character when he said "scared." it's an expression we poker players like to use sometimes when discussing a hand. also, he wasn't wrong either. if you don't want to raise that river then you are under-rolled or you aren't winning as much money as you should be.
11-06-2007, 05:17 PM
grnydrowave2

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

chill out wave. mix obviously was not judging your character when he said "scared." it's an expression we poker players like to use sometimes when discussing a hand.

To think that I'm underrolled and afraid to play big pots is presumptuous to say the least. His tone sounds condescending.
11-06-2007, 05:23 PM
grnydrowave2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

My concern is that the river card destroys villain's calling range.

Your hand is too strong to worry about this.

I don't understand. Why should I disregard his calling range when I'm behind most of it?
11-06-2007, 05:53 PM
holdin2

Quote:

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

My concern is that the river card destroys villain's calling range.

Your hand is too strong to worry about this.

I don't understand. Why should I disregard his calling range when I'm behind most of it?

I think at 50NL, his calling range may be wider than you think. Paired boards don't concern all villians. Your hand to this point may not look strong to him. He might think he's trapping you into raising his nut flush.
11-06-2007, 07:29 PM
mixchange

hey man, we're all buddies here helping. I probably should I have explained it in a nicer tone, so I apologize for that. There's no charactor judgements here. I had to ditch playing 400NL because I realized I WAS scared money, and moved down, when I realized I wasn't sometimes taking thin edges I should be for fear of big swings... though the hand up here is definitely not a thin edge, its a massive edge for you, and if you lost here you should not care absolutely one bit, its just a cooler

I just dedicated on some level that you were worried to lay all the money on the line in this pot when it's probably one of your strongest hands out of say a 500 hand session.

You say that's not the case, so considering the incredible strength of the hand including the flop, you should be prepared to go all in on all the streets. If you don't see that or see why, propose your argument and debate it with us. Just get used to going all in with sets and full houses (except those lame trips on the board ones sometimes). These are your money hands, its crucial to get your value here

you are definitely not behind his calling range, many people will pay off with an ace or king of clubs.

you also need to think about how important re-raising the turn is, often the river can be a total action killer such as a 4th spade if he doesn't have a strong one.
11-06-2007, 07:31 PM
Ash256

Get it in on the turn.
11-06-2007, 07:44 PM
badgers

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

omg nooooooooooooooooooooooooo

lol my thoughts exactly

I had to read this hh so many times because I was sure I must have missed sonething...
11-06-2007, 08:08 PM
bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by holdin2

Quote:

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

My concern is that the river card destroys villain's calling range.

Your hand is too strong to worry about this.

I don't understand. Why should I disregard his calling range when I'm behind most of it?

I think at 50NL, his calling range may be wider than you think.

ding ding mothafuckin ding

also do not discount a horribly played AA/KK
11-06-2007, 08:38 PM
grnydrowave2

I guess I give my opponents too much credit. I would have considered a king high flush the bottom of his calling range and a very small % of it. Ace-high flush, pretty small % too.

I mean, if he got there on the river his whole line is wacky. A strong flopped flush makes a little more sense, but it's still kinda ridiculous.
11-06-2007, 08:49 PM
mixchange

never underestimate your opponents ability to play his hand badly
11-06-2007, 10:33 PM
bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

never underestimate your opponents ability to play his hand badly

nh sir. added to sig.
11-06-2007, 10:53 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

My concern is that the river card destroys villain's calling range.

Your hand is too strong to worry about this.

I don't understand. Why should I disregard his calling range when I'm behind most of it?

BULLSHIT. Give me a reasonable range you're behind (remembering that he's in the big blind and you raised from the Button, so hand ranges tend to widen up here.) You're ahead of most of that before we throw in a bunch of loose call hands.

When you have a big hand on the river like this, you need to play it such that you will win a lot of money from strong second best hands even at the risk of blowing weaker hands out of the pot. It's good value and great balance.