Thoughts from a Three Month Hold'em Rookie.

I believe I understand position, but while reading articles regarding the button I've been forced to re-evaluate that belief. I'm told that understanding position is often the, if not the, most important aspect of the game, and thus far this is my "understanding" of position.

1) When you are directly to the left of the blinds, or Under The Gun, you're range is at its minimum. The reason your range is at its minimum is because you are the first person to act in the pre-flop game, and thusly you have no idea whether or not other people are going to fold, limp, raise, call or re-raise behind you, so you need to play either a strong hand or an unorthodox in order to ensure you either see the flop or take the entire orbit down with a raise.

2) As you move further to the left of the blinds, your range increases, because more players have folded (I'm assuming no raisers or limpers) and you can use that information to better asses the strength of your hand and your options.

3) At the other extreme, the best pre-flop position to be in is the BB, because either every one folds to you, at which point you collect the antes and the blinds, or you can can use the information you've garnered to make the best possible decision, or you can play your hand at a discount, which is useful for pricing low PPs and SCs etc.

Those are the pre-flop dynamics.

After splashing around with the weak tight fish that made the same mistake of buying Phel Hellmuth's books and reading Harrington on Hold'em and David Sklansky's Theory of Poker, I constructed a chart:

Note: You may want to scroll thru' this if you're not a chart kind of guy.

UTG: AKs, AKu, AA-22
EP: + A(Q-T)s, K(Q-T)s, Q(J-T)s, JTs
MP: + A(Q-T)u, T-4sc, J-4sc1
LP: + A(9-2)s, K(Q-T)u, Q(J-T)u, JTu

s=Suited, u=Unsuited, sc=Suited Connector, sc1=Suited Connector 1 Gap
(x-x)=all of the possible combinations in that range, where (x-x)sc or (x-x)sc1 means all of the logical combinations in that range i.e T9, 98, 87, 76, 65, 54 and J9, T8, 97, 86, 75, 64.

Those were my conditions for opening the orbit with a raise of 3/4xBB

EP vs UTG Raise

AKs: Re-raise or Call with a preference towards Re-Raising
AKo: Re-raise or Call
AA-TT: Re-raise
99-22: Call or Fold
A(Q-T)s: Re-raise, Call or Fold
K(Q-T)s, Q(J-T)s, JTs: Call or Fold

MP vs UTG Raise

Same as above, with a preference towards Re-raising A(Q-T)s
A(Q-T)u: Re-raise, Call or Fold
T(9-4)sc, J(T-4)sc1: Fold or Call

LP vs UTG Raise

Same as above, with a preference towards Re-raising A(Q-T)s and folding A(Q-T)u
K(Q-T)u, Q(J-T)u, JTu: Fold
A(9-2)s: Call or Fold

EP vs EP Raise

Same as EP vs UTG Raise, with a preference towards re-raising A(Q-T)s

MP vs EP Raise

Same as MP vs UTG raise, with a preference towards re-raising A(Q-T)s and A(Q-T)u

LP vs EP Raise

Same as LP vs UTG raise, with a preference towards re-raising A(Q-T)s and A(Q-T)o

MP vs MP Raise

Same as MP vs EP Raise

LP vs MP Raise

99-22s: Re-raise, Call or Fold with a preference towards Re-raising
A(9-2)s: Re-raise, Call or Fold
K(Q-T)u, Q(J-T)u, JTu: Re-raise, Call or Fold

What to do when you're re-raised,

AA-QQ: Push
JJ-TT: Push, Call or Fold with a preference towards calling
99-22: Push, Call or Fold with a preference towards folding
AKs, AKu: Push or Call with a preference towards calling
A(Q-T)s: Push, Call or Fold with a preference towards calling
A(Q-T)u: Fold
A(9-2)s: Call or Fold with a preference towards folding unless you are in multi-way
K (Q-T)s, Q(J-T)s, JTs: Call or Fold
K(Q-T)u, Q(J-T)u, JTu: Fold
T(9-4)sc, J(9-4)sc1: Call or Fold with a preference towards folding unless you are in multi-way.

I consider this a TAG chart.

Like any raising, C-Betting, Double Barreling, Block Betting, Value Betting and Over Betting grind monkey, I sent the weak tight fish down stream. Once I was comfortable at the low-limit weak tight tables, I graduated to the mid-limit weak loose tables (I estimate this to be between 5 and 20 dollars, for some reason weak loose players are arrogant and go straight to the limits where they can either make or lose reasonable amounts of money for a High School or College Student). Weak loose tables don't respect raises, have no idea what position is, love to limp into pots, are calling stations and encourage infectious play. JJ-22 were leaking and the drawing hands were accumulating, so I reconstructed the TAG chart into a fishing trip:

Raise: AKs, AKu, A(Q-T)s, K(Q-T)s, Q(J-T)s, J-Ts, AA-QQ
Limp/Call: A(9-2)s, T(9-4)sc, J(9-4)sc1, JJ-22
Bet Pot/Push: AA-QQ
Fold: A(Q-T)u, K(Q-T)u, Q(J-T)u, J-Tu

What do you do when you're re-raised? Call!

This chart made me a ridiculous amount of cash at these tables over time, but I wasn't improving. After bonus whoring and purchasing Poker Tracker I moved on to the 50/100 dollar tables, where I found decent players.

I returned to the TAG chart, C-Betting, Double Barreling, Block Betting, Value Betting and Over Betting and combined it with some Check-Raising, Check-Calling and calling C-Bets to bet at them on the turn or Re-Raise their Double Barrels if I improved, a scare card hit the board or I had at least Middle/Low Pair. I never, ever bluffed The River or slow played anything but a Full House or an Ace High Flush, and once I realized I was turning a small profit on calling C-Bets and re-raising Double Barrels I decided to add in Re-Reraising with Middle/Low Pair to mix things up. I was still making a small profit after this, but the variance was too high, so I calmed down and started respecting C-Bets and Double Barrels more often and/or started showing my Semi-Bluffs to fire up the board.

Showing my Semi-Bluffs started to increase my pay days with sets, because my betting patterns for TPTK and sets were so similar, and that's when I noticed some variance between my online and home game play. In my home game, the rules for showing cards were liberal, we could show both cards, or one card at any time during the hand as long as we had chips in the middle (in other words mucking your cards face up with out a stake in the pot was strictly prohibited, and you would pay a fine if you did it accidentally). IMO, if you play a home game, you should use the "Show 1 Card" trick to your advantage, because even if people are playing by Online or WPT rules, most people don't know that if you show 1 card you have to show both cards. Always be prepared to show both cards, but know that showing an opponent that you have one pair when you have two, showing your opponent that you have one pair when you have a set, showing your opponent that you have a draw instead of a made hand or just showing TPTK with an awful kicker or Middle or Low Pair will drive people bat shit crazy.

I gained, and lost, a lot of respect by showing my cards, but for better or worse I was branded a LAG. "WTF is a LAG?" I thought to myself, and then I continued to play the same game I always did. I considered myself a part time Poker player, and while my friends were wasting away on World of Warcraft and Halo 3, I had built a 4k bank roll thru' TAG play. I got over eager and moved on from the 50 dollars tables to the 200 dollar tables, and that's where I found the other TAGs.

While I didn't take a tremendous step back, I didn't take a tremendous step forward either. TAG vs TAG play is grueling, because while the chips will swing back and forth, TAGs will either break even against each other, make a small profit by being slightly more aggressive/tricky/perceptive and every once and while get payed off when another TAG gets bored and decides to do something stupid. Can you guess which kind of TAG I was ...

After losing half of my bank roll from a combination of bad calls, bad beats and that dreaded, evil Pin Ball monster we all call Tilt, I stepped down to the 100 dollar tables, where I learned to read my opponent's and I recouperated my losses. After I had regained my confidence, and I had "improved" my style, I returned to the 200 dollar tables.

Promptly after returning to the 200 dollar tables, I lost half my bankroll, again, and stepped down to the 100 dollar tables, again. I was furious, because while I felt I had improved my play, I was facing the possibility that I had hit a plateau in my playing abilities. While some people need to except that they'll never be professional poker players, I'm a stubborn son of a bitch. Even tho' I had no desire to play poker full time, I love my "real" job, I was pissed off that I couldn't play poker professionally if I wanted to.

"Did that man just Raise SCs UTG? That guy is a maniac!"

There's a fine line between being brilliant and being insane, but I learned two important lessons here. The first lesson was that being unpredictable is a good thing. Even tho' I played a large number of hands and played a large number of hands well for a TAG, I realized that I was religious when it came down to where, when and for how much I played those hands. My opponent's must be reading me like a book, so I opened up Poker Tracker and started to study myself. My 99-22s were leaking from my UTG Raises and Calls, my Sets weren't getting payed, my T(9-4)sc and J(9-4)sc1 were also leaking from my Raises and Calls, my Straights weren't getting payed but my Flushes were.

All TAGs do is raise, raise this, raise that, raise raise raise. Then I came across Frank Henderson's theory, and I was reminded of all that cash I made at the 5/20NL tables . To paraphrase, he would just limp with 99-22, T(9-4)sc, J(9-4)sc1, A(9-2)s and even A(Q-T)o to get into the pot for as little as possible and then get out of the pot with as much as possible after the flop hit him. It sounded reasonable, and it kept me from getting bored, so ...

Me vs 200NL TAGs Round 3 "Bye Bye Hand Chart"

I didn't expect limping vs TAGs to work, but it did work. I was getting payed, I was getting payed because the TAGs saw me as some weak loose fish that was going to blow his entire bank roll in one sitting, and all of a sudden I was involved in multi-way pots with the sharks swimming around me, value betting those TPTK all the way to The River, where I had the Sets, Straights and Flushes waiting for them. I'd get payed, and then I would get up and go to another table to find another TAG sucker that over valued TPTK and start all over again.

"We're Going to Need a Bigger Boat!"

Eventually, you run out of suckers, especially when you're at a home game or in a casino, so you're forced to play poker. I felted some one with a set of deuces after I limped into the pot with them UTG, and then I felted some one with a baby back door flush after I limped into the pot from the same position. I kept trying, but the jig was up, so I had to start playing real poker.

Note: I quickly earned the nick name of "Limp Dick" from the players I felted IRL, but those same people, and the people they warned, kept on taking the bait. IRL, people are much more stubborn than online, because they can't necessarily find another game or something to distract themselves with while Tilt wears off. They have to deal with you, and when they have to deal with you, they usually don't do it well. People had grown so accustomed to me limping in with "garbage" that I started to limp AA-KK after a horrendous bad beat losing streak with these hands. My opponents didn't get the joke, and when I turned over a set of Aces or Kings on the turn "Limp Dick" got a lot harder to play against. On occasion, people would even forget I was in the pot, make a move on one another and then I could come over the top of them with the best hand.

When I got back to playing real poker, I had a problem. When I raised UTG, I was raising with a range of AKs, AKo, AA-TT and that was it. When I raised, people realized that they needed to get out of the way, when I limped, people realized they needed to be cautious. Even when I combined my reduced UTG and EP range, it was still easy for my opponent's to at least recognize my range and play accordingly. I bought a car with the cash I made limping against TAGs, but even tho' I had learned a cute trick, I hadn't improved. I was still a TAG, I was just a tricky TAG, and then I remembered that maniac ...

Misplaying position? Blasphemy!

I understood the correlation between position and hand strength, but what I didn't fully understand was the correlation between betting and the button. I had read strategy articles, but the authors only referred to the button as the button, and never mentioned which side of the button you were suppose to be on. I thought it was obvious that you wanted to be to the right of button, since you were guaranteed to act last in the hand, which allowed you to collect information and steal the pot. When I first started to playing poker, multi-way was very common, and when you were in a multi-way pot, you always wanted to be the last to act, because there were just too many hands in the cookie jar to deal with.

I needed to raise with more hands, and different hands, UTG, so I started raising with 99-22 again and added raising T(9-4)sc and J(T-4)sc1 as often as I limped with them in order to catch people off guard. I had become a UTG and EP LAG with no respect for the button. I would raise, some one in EP or MP would call or re-raise and the blinds wouldn't defend their stake in the pot, nothing unusual there. But I was finding myself to the left of the button, and once people realized my range was ridiculously large, I was getting cold called a lot. I didn't know what to do, and usually when I don't know what to do, I bet. I started taking down pot after pot, I took down so many pots by being the first to bet into a pot with ATC it was sickening. My set and drawing game was shelved, and I started playing small pot poker. I would terrorize the other players from the left of the button, Raising, C-Betting and Double Barreling them into bankruptcy, and it made absolutely no sense to me. Either I was doing something right or I was doing something terribly wrong and getting away with it.

To this day, I don't know what the "right" answer to that question is. But I came up with a theory that I like to call "The Initiative." The Initiative is based on my personal observations and limited understanding of game theory, but the theory states that in anticipation of being Heads Up the value of acting first pre-flop and the value of acting first post-flop are inverse. So while you want to play cards that will hold up to the raises and re-raises of the pre-flop game in early position, you also want to be the first person to bet the flop, because the first person to bet the flop, more often than not, takes the pot down. As a consequence of this theory, the strongest position on the board is the SB, because it's the second to last player to act in the pre-flop game and the first person to bet the flop. You can torture the BB by always raising and C-Betting him, or you can torture the UTG, EP, MP players by re-raising, forcing out the BB and isolating the other players to bet first into.

It may not phase the pros, but the shock value seems to work unilaterally against the weak tight fish and TAGs. By betting first you have the initiative, by Double Barreling, you have the momentum and when the weak tight fish and TAGs get tired of the abuse and lash out at you, you wake up with a hand.

Any way, that's my first three months of poker in a nut shell. I managed to buy a car and put a down payment on my house with a lot of aggression, a lot of discipline, some unorthodox play and a general disdain of TPTK, 2Pair and Over Pairs. I'm by no means a professional player, but poker has been very good to me, and at the age of 23, I have a lot more to show from it than my asshole friends have to show from World of Consume Your Life Craft. It's arguably been the best 50 dollar investment and learning experience I've ever made, and hopefully my long winded tale will inspire you to make something of yourselves.

Props to SmakinYaUp, his personal website and the advice it afforded me was invaluable, if you take the time to listen to that man, you'll be well on your way to generating a second source of income.

Slops to Phil Hellmuth, your book wasn't worth the 9.95 I payed for it let alone the 50.00 dollars I lost from it. May Vegas Billboards haunt your dreams you commercial ninny.

My god man, 2952 words first post.
Must be some kind of a new record.


Welcome to FTR!

and btw, UTG is not first to act post flop. That honor belongs to SB.

holy shit. record virgin post, for sure.

welcome. and if i may add some commentary. no offense, i didnt get near all the way through it...yet. thats gonna take awhile. but, i am the king of long posts, too. so, i will get through it. it's only fair.

BB is last to act preflop, yes, but it is no advantage. you will act at best second the rest of the way. "position" is used largely as a post flop concept when regarding preflop hand ranges.

i also think you are valuing sc's and gappers way to highly. KQ is a far better hand when opening a pot from EP or MP than T9s or 68s. FAR better. however, KQ is still borderline to open from EP, and a definite no-no in a fr game or a tight-passive game, imo.

i'll get to the rest some other time.

good thoughts so far, but you are still way too loose, imo, for 3 months experience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

My god man, 2952 words first post.
Must be some kind of a new record.


Welcome to FTR!

and btw, UTG is not first to act post flop. That honor belongs to SB.

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Thanks! I've been a long time lurker on FTR and just wanted to give something back after being relatively successful with what I've learned from the myriad of articles and links on this site.

I must have meant first to act pre-flop, I stated that in the first bullet point, or I must have meant that if some one calls to the right of the button and the blinds fold that UTG is now betting with The Initiative into the flop.

By the way, if any one can school me on the finer points of position, I'd really appreciate it. I think I get that being immediately to the right or immediately to the left of the button are the two strongest positions to be in, and that being immediately to the right of the button is preferable in multi-way pots, but I have a sick C-Betting and Double Barreling record with ATC whenever I'm to the left of the button in HU or even 3 way.

left of the button sucks since everyone acts after you. Granted this gives you alot of freedom to do whatever you want, but you dont get any free information. Say you hit middle pair and bet it. Someone with top pair might call your bet in later position, but someone with a draw might as well. Had you been in later position, the guy with the draw may check, then you bet, then he calls giving you info on his hand. The guy with top pair will probably bet telling you your middle pair is no good.

This applies to more than just this scenario, it applies to everything. If you flop the nuts, its often hard to decide if you trap or bet with em in early position. But in LATE position, its far easier because everyone has already acted. You gain info on who may have a hand worth getting involved in a crazy pot.

Also, its much easier to bluff in position as you know that if the opponent checks it means they are either weak, on a draw, or trapping. 2 of the possibilities mean they can fold and the other is easy to figure out since they will either raise you or act differently than they normally do. Not sure if this makes alot of sense, as im not exactly putting much thought into where im putting ideas, but what i said makes sense to me lol.

@Chopper,

When I first constructed that hand chart, I put the emphasis on made hands, drawing hands, 2Pair, TPTK and Ace High. I fond that the highest % of the hands I won for substantial pots were from Sets, Straights and Flushes in that order and that K(Q-T)u, Q(J-T)u and JTu were losing me a substantial amount of cash when I was raising with them before the button. Despite referring to Sklansky's hand chart for guidance, I was still running KQu into AK and AQ and spewing chips to cold callers that were in position, so I was forced to relegate those hands to assaulting the blinds.

T(9-4)sc and J(9-4)sc1, despite having a reduced odds of winning a pot, have a much higher chance of getting paid off when they do win a pot, and they are much easier to get away from when you miss your draw but hit a pair. I'm aware that some of those hands are ranked "off" of their Sklansky Values, but instead of thinking of hands based on their odds of winning a hand over the course of 5 cards, I think of hands based on categories that correlate to how they actually play thru' 4 rounds of betting. For instance, it didn't make sense to me to categorize 99 in one column and 55 in another column when I was playing them identically, and it didn't make sense to play them differently (i.e raise with 99 and limp with 55) and create a tell.

When I read the GAP Concept, I realized that it didn't take into account setting the opponent with middle/small pocket pairs and drawing with suited connectors, but instead served as a warning to fold hands that relied on face cards for their value against a UTG/EP raise unless your face cards were better than there's, so A(Q-T)u, A(9-2)s and K(Q-T)u, Q(J-T)u and JTu ended up further down the chart than Sklansky would rank them.

I may or may not be too loose (ok, I probably am too lose), but I do end up ahead in the end. I think the reason for this is that even tho' I have a lot of starting hands in the Suited Connectors range and bleed chips, when I do hit, I hit hard. I'd rather be too loose with Suited Connectors than too loose with a couple of face cards.

Also, to clarify, I'm capable of letting any hand go, so it's not like I'm limping, raising or calling with Suited Connectors every time they're dealt to me. Sometimes I'll just sit at a table raising with AA-JJ and AK and stealing the blinds until I can get a read on the opponent's and develop a tight table image before I start to go into LAG mode.

@IPLAYTIGHT

I understand what you are saying, and in multi-way, that's how I have always played position. But in heads up, I think there is a lot to be said about betting first. In all of your examples, you're visualizing defeat. For me, I don't plan on limping, calling, raising or re-raising out of position unless I plan on betting the flop, the turn or both. I want my opponent to visualize defeat and fold, and it often works (largely thanks to Double Barreling like its going out of fashion) because the opponent expects you to have a bigger hand than his when you call out of position, even tho' I usually have a draw or a small pair if I re-raised him. Both players miss the flop the majority of the time, so you may as well be the first player with his hand in the cookie jar. You can throw in some check raises here and there on the flop and the turn to mix things up, and since I tend to have a drawing hand in these positions, I make a huge amount of money with these hands if I hit The River.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by breathweapon

2) As you move further to the left of the blinds, your range increases, because more players have folded (I'm assuming no raisers or limpers) and you can use that information to better asses the strength of your hand and your options.

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This is not why we value position per se. The value of position is mostly found on the next 3 streets where our decisions are much easier (as opposed to being in early position), our opponents decisions are more difficult and give us more information, and it is easier to take down orphan pots.

When we're in position and our opponents are strong, we don't have to invest any money to learn that. When checked to in position, our bets will win the pot much more frequently. Conversely, our continuation bets win pots less frequently out of position. Extracting value from a monster out of position is more difficult. You have to decide which particular line to take. Should you lead? Check/call? Check/raise? What about the turn and river? There is more room for error. When you're in position with a monster, the choices are relatively simple.

There is more to it, and I'm no good at explaining things, just know that it's way more valuable than evaluating your hand preflop. Sure, I'll fold AT in the CO if it's raised, but I wasn't going to play that UTG anyway. Being in position didn't make my choice any easier. Play a little 6-max for a good crash course in the value of position, it's worked wonders for me ;)

Sorry if you addressed some of this already, I sort of skimmed through the rest of your post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

When we're in position and our opponents are strong, we don't have to invest any money to learn that. When checked to in position, our bets will win the pot much more frequently. Conversely, our continuation bets win pots less frequently out of position. Extracting value from a monster out of position is more difficult. You have to decide which particular line to take. Should you lead? Check/call? Check/raise? What about the turn and river? There is more room for error. When you're in position with a monster, the choices are relatively simple.

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I wish someone had explained position to me like this when I first started out. Great post.

i understand you have given this a TON of thought, and that is great. and, i am learning from you, too. so, dont think what i said was insulting (i dont think you did); it was merely a comment.

and you are absolutely right about "hitting a flop hard" when you hit. but, there is a reason the "pros" and authors disadvise playing sc's oop, especially from EP. but, you have good contradictory thoughts.

it seems to me that playing all those connectors and gappers, and not playing power cards (broadways) as frequently (when compared to how many holdings fall into your range), your variance would be through the roof. and, obviously, you are doing a lot of folding on the flop from oop, leading me to believe that the times you DO continue, it would be easier to put you on a big draw (board connected/flushy) or big broadways (dry board). i would think your range would become a little more "transparent" wide as it may be, if someone learned how much you like sc's and gappers. but, that may just be me.

one more thing: my guess is to disguise that, you would have to play your draws (even backdoors) extremely hard, leading to even more variance?

and do you tighten up/close down your range when you start getting floated/played back at?

Jesus Christ what a fucking post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

i understand you have given this a TON of thought, and that is great. and, i am learning from you, too. so, dont think what i said was insulting (i dont think you did); it was merely a comment.

and you are absolutely right about "hitting a flop hard" when you hit. but, there is a reason the "pros" and authors disadvise playing sc's oop, especially from EP. but, you have good contradictory thoughts.

it seems to me that playing all those connectors and gappers, and not playing power cards (broadways) as frequently (when compared to how many holdings fall into your range), your variance would be through the roof. and, obviously, you are doing a lot of folding on the flop from oop, leading me to believe that the times you DO continue, it would be easier to put you on a big draw (board connected/flushy) or big broadways (dry board). i would think your range would become a little more "transparent" wide as it may be, if someone learned how much you like sc's and gappers. but, that may just be me.

one more thing: my guess is to disguise that, you would have to play your draws (even backdoors) extremely hard, leading to even more variance?

and do you tighten up/close down your range when you start getting floated/played back at?

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You can criticize me all you want/need to, even tho' I've been successful with my personal approach to the game, I realize that I still have a lot to learn, and I just reached the point where I felt I had something to offer.

I don't think I play Broadway less, or significantly less enough in order for my opponents to determine that I'm on Suited Connectors when I'm betting hard. A lot of people don't include KQu in their UTG/EP hands, and for good reason, but a lot of people also don't include Suited Broadway in their UTG/EP range like I do either. Ironically, I may play Broadway more often than the rest of you as long as my cards are Suited.

As far as people putting me on Suited Connectors out of position goes, unless you personally know me, I think it's difficult to put me on that hand because of the way I bet OOP.

If I raised with SC/SC1 or Mid/Small PP OOP I always continuation bet unless,

1) There are three face cards on the board
2) There are three to a flush on the board
3) There are three to a straight on the board
4) There is some combination of the above that are in my opponent's range
5) There is no card with the same suit as my Suited Connectors on the board for the BDFD.
6) My opponent doesn't have enough chips to afford the fold or pay me off
7) My opponent is a Phone Booth
8) I have a read or they think they have a read on me
9) I have no reason to get involved at this time
10) The pot doesn't justify the crime

Even then, I can often disregard the first three points and put the fear into my opponent for a Double Barrel if a scare card hits the turn, altho' it can get spewey, at which point I'm in Small Stack mode.

C-Betting out of position is a religion to me, because I believe in always giving myself an opportunity to win the point.

This does one of the following,

1) The Fish believe me and get out of the pot, at which point I begin to play small pot poker.
2) People assume I either hit the board for a pair or had a pair to begin with, so they'll smooth call their draws and I'll Double Barrel/Value Bet The Turn to get them to fold their draws. TP with a garbage kicker or MP or SP will either fold altogether or let me know what they have right then and there.
3) People start floating me, at which point I don't Double Barrel unless I pick up a BDFD, a pair, a set, trips or 2Pair if I hit the flop and the turn, or I have a combination. If I have 2Pair, a set or trips I'm either pushing or check-pushing. When I have a combination, a pair and a flush draw, a flush draw and a gut shot, a flush draw and a straight draw or some or all of the above, I audible and use my best judgment/math.
4) People start re-raising me, this is the point where I either sit down and play fair or Push if I think they're re-raising me with air/I have TPTK, 2 Pair or a pair + draw.
5) I over bet BDFD, Straights, Sets and 2Pair on The River, people perceive it as a bluff, they call and I get paid. Going all in works here to, and it's often even more effective when I'm the short stack or there are enough chips worth fighting to the death for. If I just have a pair, I'll Value Bet, Blocking Bet or just let it go (bluffing The River is for either a genius or a mad man, and I'm neither).

When I do have a hand, what this does is,

1) People will fold to the sets, flushes and straights and I pick up the pot.
2) People don't believe that I have the sets, flushes and straights and I get their entire stack.
3) People float me into "free" cards (I paid for the chance to win) while I price the pot for the draw. If I do hit the hand, I bet again, because betting again is what I do, and even tho' some people will fold, other opponent's will make a move and I get their entire stack.

There are good and bad consequences to all of this,

1) You will have to forfeit less straights to flushes and less baby flushes to four to a flush.
2) You will bust sets, which is even more profitable than busting some one with a set.
3) People always think your full of shit, so your TPTK hands may/may not see The River, or you may need to start re-re-raising or pushing with your TPTK hands.
4) You may need to get tricky with your TPTK and check it for a check raise, a bet on the turn and/or a bet on the river. These hands can get away from you, but these aren't hands you want to get heavily invested with any way, and even if they do get away from you, you aren't losing much.
5) No one has a clue what you are doing and they will just look you up or call you down, and this can either be really, really good or really, really bad for your chip stack and table image.

So, my entire theory is bet once OOP, try and get a read, bet twice OOP if you get that read, a scare card hits or you improve, and if you hit hard along the way, bet it hard. Bet it hard so it looks like your bluffing, bet it hard so you get paid, bet it hard just to Tilt them and bet it hard just to let them know that you're not fucking around.

The only hands I slow play to The River OOP are a Full House, a Nut Flush or a Bicycle Straight.

Sometimes, you build a stack out of your opponent's folding their hands, sometimes you build a stack out of you hitting your hands, sometimes you build a stack out of your opponent's frustration or stupidity, sometimes you lose chips/gain information and go into Small Stack mode, sometimes you leap onto the sword and shake it off/go home.

The trick is to use your aggression to get ahead, and when people finally think they've figured you out, you start over betting to get even further ahead. If you leap onto the sword, you either go back to where you started in chips or you go into Short Stack mode and play ABCPoker with big cards until you can afford to play drawing hands in position, and after you've rebuilt your stack with drawing hands in position, you can either go back to being a LAG or stick with what's working. Even in these two worst case scenarios (well going home is the worst case scenario, but what else is there to talk about that?) you've established a table image and collected information.

The key is to know when to stop, and it's either when you're way ahead, when you're behind or The Sheriff/Lynch Mob arrives.

I don't feel as tho' I'm playing high risk poker, I feel as tho' I'm playing unorthodox poker, and by the time they finally figure me out, I either jump ship or sing my ABC's.

The difference between a TAG and a LAG (or a TAG and quite possibly a Maniac) is that the other guy has the balls to bet when he's behind and out of position and the brains not to hang himself out to dry on The River.

You have to play like water, you have to be willing to set your sails to any wind that will carry you, brave the storms that await you and run aground when the water rises up against you.

wow, a lot to get through, but good stuff. You're definitely a LAG, and here's the key. You're game is only deceptive as long as you avoid show downs. Hit a bad run early, and you'll uncover too many mediocre starting hands. You'll be short stacked AND labeled. Changing gears is good, but when you change from LAG to TAG, you'll seem like scared money.

Why not start TAG, then pick your spots to get more LAG? You play aggressively enough to set up a great TAG image, then profit from your "normal" style with less risk. BTW I used to play a similar style, and I just keep tightening up more and more. It's just more profitable, imo, in the long run.

Also, for practice, I agree with grny. Play some 6 max NLH at small stakes on a table w/ 70% see-the-flop. No one's folding anything until the turn, and bad beats abound. But a TAG approach (say 20 / 14 ish) works well, and they pay off every premium hand. Good practice.

I don't think I even knew the term "broadway" three months into things. Good luck with this...great post regardless of what people think of your theory. To have this kind of system this early is pretty neat me thinks.

post some hands pls.

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Originally Posted by Robb

wow, a lot to get through, but good stuff. You're definitely a LAG, and here's the key. You're game is only deceptive as long as you avoid show downs. Hit a bad run early, and you'll uncover too many mediocre starting hands. You'll be short stacked AND labeled. Changing gears is good, but when you change from LAG to TAG, you'll seem like scared money.

Why not start TAG, then pick your spots to get more LAG? You play aggressively enough to set up a great TAG image, then profit from your "normal" style with less risk. BTW I used to play a similar style, and I just keep tightening up more and more. It's just more profitable, imo, in the long run.

Also, for practice, I agree with grny. Play some 6 max NLH at small stakes on a table w/ 70% see-the-flop. No one's folding anything until the turn, and bad beats abound. But a TAG approach (say 20 / 14 ish) works well, and they pay off every premium hand. Good practice.

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That's good advice and I'll take that it into consideration. When I'm playing IRL I'll be a TAG raising with just AA-JJ and AK until I establish a table image and/or get reads until I decide to go for it, but online it's not as helpful because most people aren't paying attention to you any way and either they leave before the jig is up or you leave after.

I'm not certain what it is about SCs I love so much, sure, when you make your hand you're not going to go home to anything really retarded like you would with TPTK and you always know when to leave, but I think the real appeal is that SCs have so many different lines they can take (I only have one line OOP, but still you know what I'm saying) . Any one can play pocket pairs and face cards reasonably well, but it seems the real art (and pay off) of the game comes from how you are handling your draws.

I can find article after article on pocket pairs, and they're like the easiest hands to play in poker, but no one really talks about drawing hands that much.

Does liking JT Suited more than TT make me a bad player :wink: