Advice Please - Losing my Way

Hello all,

Bit of a hotch potch post - and my first too - but I'd like a bit on advice please as I'm hitting my head against a brick wall at the moment. I've been playing since 2005 but only for cash since June. I read books,watch shows, buy the magazines and read the forums. I know my oods/outs/pre flop odds, starting hands, position and bluffing/aggression.

In short, I take the game seriously and have a very good understanding of the fundamentals of poker.

My foray into cash play has been quite good. Playing 6/10 seater $5 SNGs, I finish in the money 1/2 games. Whenever I deposit $20, I soon turn this into $140. Anyway, the site I played at had a high number of aces, I counted 23 in 37 flops, and as rag acers dominated and as they didn't do rakeback, I was ready to move on to a new site, adhering to strict BR operations.

The problem is this, wherever I go, at the level I can afford, the play I encounter is incredibly loose and fishy and my every attempt to "play properly" and get better is being hindered by bad beat after bad beat.

Perhaps I am asking for the impossible, but I need to know of any sites/levels you recommend that aren't too crazily fishy or swimming with sharks.

I left Titan and joined UB and later, Poker Heaven - where it seemed the inmates were running the asylum. Here, I got busted and beat up pretty bad, with guys calling ANY bet with ANY 2 cards. For example, holding QK and flopping 2 pair, and despite betting on every street, I lost to a guy holding pocket 2s by making trips on the river. I also saw guys making all ins with K10 and being called by A4. And these all ins were usually joined by at least 2 others in a 4 way all in pot?!?!?

And this is at the $20 level!!! Not $1. Not $5. But $20!!! Now, if I am to commit no more than 3% of my BR to tourney play then I simply cannot continue at this expense. These fishy players are meant to be good but not for me. This play continued in the freerolls and cash games when I indulged in a bit of ring play at.25/.50 level.

It was like it was play money.

Am I asking for the impossible - people who try to play poker? I'm not the best. I'm far from it. I have a good grasp of ABC poker but I want to get better. Yet I'm finding it hard to meet people who feel the same and who take poker seriously. If I hold 59os, and two people in front of me raise/call 6xbb, I'm throwing them down. Not at Poker Heaven.

I've tried Titan, Pokerroom, Ultimate Bet and Poker Heaven for cash. I can't believe it but Titan is by far and away the best - great graphics, hand history for all players, menu, stats etc. But i don't wanna go back.

And I've tried Full Tilt, Mansion, Bodog, Interpoker, FatBet, Purple Lounge for play chips so I can evaluate the software and the look/feel and just to confuse matters, I need a site that has looks/functionality.

Only Mansion looks good and has the graphic display of play that I like. Unfortunately, no one seems to play there. Purple Lounge is just....purple and FatBet a horrible grey/yellow scheme - like looking at a negative.

Full Tilt, minus the avatars was okay. But no decent stats/hand history or with the excellent layout of Titan (ipoker network). And I hear FT is full of Great Whites. As is PokerStars.

No other site offers the excellence of Titan: the graphic display of each game, hand history of each hand (including cards of opponents that lost at showdown which is great for info on opponents) detailed stats etc.

In addition, as I had amassed a lot of VIP points at Titan, I traded these in for MTT entry to test myself in more than just "final table" scenarios. I also thought there'd be less loose crazy play. I did ok, getting as high as 18th from 500 runners and I can take heart from the fact that I never lost to a better starting hand - but to guys who sucked out: KK lost to K8, AA lost to Q5, KA lost to J6 and QQ lost to 29. However, I still got busted at the end of the day and I am beginning to lose my confidence and aggression.

Anyway, if you can help, it'd be great. And any advice - on any aspect - would be much appreciated.

Thx

There is too much here to answer. You know the answers anyway. You are not the first to have problems playing the fish, but believe me, they are beatable. Seriously, think about what you are asking, you want to sit at a table with skilled players because you think you can outplay them? This I guarantee, you will not. Any player on here playing at a high level will destroy those games you complain about. You have to as well. It's about learning poker. I am willing to bet that you don't know as much, or play as well, as you think. Here is what you do. Go to the video section. Watch and listen to Bigspendas videos. I mean really listen. Then ask yourself truthfully, have you ever asked yourself the questions that he does during a game of poker. Have you ever thought about what he thinks about during a hand. Trust me when I say, if you can't beat the fish, you can't play poker. And guess what? There are fish at every level playing any two cards, calling all ins with J high flush draws. We play the odds, we play the board and we pray that we play against fish.


Post some hands, get some feedback. Don't just come in here and start complaining because we've heard it, we've seen, hell we've been there and done that. We can help, but what do you want help with?

Short answer: Fish are your friends. The extra bad beats are a side effect of an otherwise favorable situation. They're giving their money away, and if you can't beat them you certainly won't be able beat better players.

Read about bankroll management here, and try to understand that poker is about making correct decisions over the long term, which is summarized nicely here.

Good luck and welcome to FTR.

Guys,

Thx for the replies.

I appreciate it is hard to answer. I guess the main question is: do you know of any sites that aren't so fishy and crazily loose? Where your bets are actually respected and people don't just call your 6xbb raise simoply because the blinds are lwo and it's cheap to do so. And where your opponents observe the texture of the board - and not just the 2 cards they hold.

Trainer_jyms, no way do I think I can outplay skilled players or that I know a lot about poker. I have a good grasp of the fundamentals - of ABC poker. Nothing more, nothing less.

And apologies if you thought I was moaning. I was not. I just wanted to flesh out some of my history, that is all.

grnydrowave2, everything you say is already duly noted but thanks again for taking the time to reply. And thank you for the welcome.

I will check out the videos, thank you, but I do ask a number of questions at each stage. Of all the training tools out there, I've found Phil Gordon's "Final Table" DVD and "Little Green Book" to be the most useful - and I go through the same questions he does.

By the way, Trainer, who is that amazingly hot bird in your signature? Smoking!!!!!

I want a copy!

As for the avatar, there is a huge debate about the hotness.

As for poker, you will not like tight tables, but if you want to try, go to Full Tilt, they are the tightest rockfest of a site you will ever find. Keep in mind, once people learn to fold, they aren't so easy to beat. Respecting raises means they understand hand values, position and reading the board. Things will get tougher, not easier. You are asking for the impossible, Bad players that fold to raises.

You didn't read either of the links I posted, did you? Please just take a few minutes to actually digest the information there (particularly the 2nd link), and you may actually see the light.

When you're at a table full of TAGs at 100NL who do actually respect your raises, you'll wish you were playing the fish again!

But seriously, just grind your way up like everyone else. Don't go looking for the tough games, you won't find somewhere where your raises are respected anywhere below 100NL.

You're thinking way too much in the short term. Fwiw, 10000 hands gives you an idea of whether you're a winning or losing player, only at 80000 or so can you get an idea of rates.

If I was you I'd play cash (just cause that's a personal preference and I think it's easier to cope with bad beats there) at whatever stake you can afford with 20 buyins (If that's 2NL there's no shame, you'll learn a lot) and grind continuously; multitabling if you feel like it.

I was in the same place as you once.. It's good to get out of it and get some kind of rhythm to your poker career.

Oh, btw, you're not nearly as good as you think - you probably have huge leaks - it's difficult to get good at poker when you're focussing on the short term and keep stuttering in your play.

Basically, get a bankroll, find somewhere you're going to grind, post hands here on FTR, make money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Trust me when I say, if you can't beat the fish, you can't play poker.

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As holder of the "Most Dysfunctional Noobie" title (3 months running!! :shock: ), I will now comment...

1) Books are good. Magazines are good. Nothing replaces playing an f-load of hands... like 30K+ at least. It's kind of like reading about how to have sex... the damn books just never seem to translate! Huge difference between knowing and applying.
2) Forget TV. Useless. Turns your head into cream of wheat. And cream of wheat don't play good poker... Watch some Spenda or Jyms vids instead. It's like TV, only fuzzier (and Jyms voice keeps going in and out, but that's okay...) Plus they actually tell u sh!t that's gonna help....
3) Play 30K hands. At one place. At the same (or reasonably adjacent) limits. Sng's play very different than micro limit than micro NL than MTTs blah blah blah. I used to lose money at one so figured changing the type of game was the problem. Yeah... just meant that I never really was forced to work out the gritty or the nitty at one style. Now when I have a stretch of suckage, I go play Starcraft. I can suck on that for free! :D
4) If you can't beat 2NL over 20K hands, you can't beat 10NL... or 25, etc. The players only get better. If my Moms beats my ass at tennis on a daily basis, playing Serena isn't going to increase my win rate just 'cause she got more skills. That being said, I do feel you... Listening to how everyone "crushes" the lower limits when you sitting there running -14BB/100 going "where the f- my fish at???" doesn't feel good. But they are right. And their win rate proves it. Guarantee every one of these dudes posting winning game at 100NL+ can clean up from 2-25NL on any site, any day of the week (variance excluded...)

Now I'm gonna go back to my 39th 27o in the past hour... Yeah, that's right... I'm COUNTING UB... my "online poker is rigged" post gonna have mad statistics!

Trainer_jyms,
I think she's hot. And that's all that matters to me :D
Who is she?


grnydrowave2,
Yes, I did read the links. Thank you for them. As mentioned earlier, I know about bankroll and part of my looking for a new site was to strictly adhere to one. At UB and PH, I didn't. There, I deposited enough for a few SNGs so I could evaluate whether I liked them enough to be my new home. And that is where the sample history came from.

All the 600% increases in my £20 investments, I eventually lost due to NOT adhering to BR management and so I am gonna be strict from now on.

As for bad beats, yeah, they happen. It's poker, I know. My only point in mentioning them was that I was shocked at the looseness of the play. 4 guys in all in pots, regularly?!

My reason for posting this thread in the first instance is simply to ask whether you know of sites that aren't so anarchic.



Ash256,
I apologise if you think I want to take on good players, I don't. As I said in my first post, I want to avoid loose cannons and sharks. I just wanna play against people, like me, who are learning and have a desire to play properly. To replicate, just to even a small degree, the knowledge and play we see on TV and read in our magazines and books.

And I don't know why I am giving off the impression I think I am good - as I don't and I am doing my best to point this out. I have a good grasp of fundamentals - of ABC poker. That is all.

I think I've played circa 18,000 hands thus far. 5 times I deposited £20 and 5 times, I generated consistent results at $5 SNGs, realising money finishes every other game and turning each investment into £120 within 2 weeks.

And for sure I have huge leaks and I can't even begin to appreciate teh play of Negreanu and co, but in the bad beat examples I gave, the opponents played far, far worse than I :D

As for cash v tourney, it's strange. I can easily make as much money as cashing in a tourney in minutes - without having to defeat 7 others first! But once I do make it, I am reluctant to bet it for fear of losing LOL! And strangely enough, I find it easier to handle the variance in a tourney. If I lose 1/2 my chips, I am still in the game. If I lose 1/2 my chips in a ring game - I have a mild heart attack!

I want my cash game to get better - as that's where the big money lies but tourney play is where my results are better. And I also get more entertainment value (a 45m tourney for just $5) which is great right now.

As for finding somewhere to grind - that's why I've posted! :)

Thx guys!


ps: as a side issue that's popped up in replying here, can you please explain why cash & tourney are seen as completely different games. And, more importantly, why world class players in one can crash in the other?

Surely the concepts of good play is the same for both and I can't see how Helmuth, for example, can be such a poor cash player. He still knows his hands, can bluff, can read people as though he has x ray vision etc.

The only answer I've ever gotten is that cash can be more open as you're not afraid to bust out on a coin flip as you can rebuy. But the rebuy is obvious. It still doesn't explain, to me, why good players struggle to succeed, why they're seen as different or why any decent player would risk a 50-50 decision in either format, unless they had sound reason to do so.

(if this requires a separate thread - just let me know and I'll repost).

Thx

Don't mistake any of these post for anything other than guys giving a shit. They are trying to help. Sometimes you hear the same things several times put 100 ways and the answers come out a little harsh. as for some of the things you posted, one thing that has been said and you have agreed as well, I would like to reiterate. BANKROLL MANAGEMENT. It is the first and foremost reason anybody loses their money. You need to adhere to a very strict bankroll management. I won't get into details here, but there have been many posts and arguments based around the bankroll management rules. Whichever you decide as your rules, they are unwavering. They will make all the difference to your improvement as a poker player if for nothing else, other than your bankroll being judge and jury off your poker playing abilities.


Yes the question of cash vs tourneys is a separate thread and probably has been posted. Quick answer Cash 100BB's tourney anywhere between 100 and 10 BB's. Tourney, lose a 75/25 and your going back to the lobby, cash, reload and get the money back.

Sarbox,


You posted as I did, I wasn't ignoring ya!
Thx for the advice. It's duly noted. :D

To everyone, without beating a dead horse, the only reason for this thread was to ask if you know of any sites that aren't crazily loose (Poker Heaven) or shark infested (Full Tilt/PokerStars).

It's not to moan how I am being bad beat each game and that I am some superb hotshot.

Not yet, anyway ;)

As for my question, the answer is probably that there isn't one such site!



Trainer, I haven't misread anyone. I am very grateful for all responses , have thanked you all each time, and I believe I have accepted the blame for any miscommunication that may have occured. I am here to learn from you all and you've all been great thus far. Mucho appreciated.

And I still would *love* to know who that woman is. Puh-lease!

Thx dude... but I don't give advice.... I just ramble in a loosely directed sort of way... Best of luck! :)

ignote the short term ebbs and flows of the game
concentrate instead on the bigger picture



see my sig

To completely derail the thread, her name is Angie Salvagno and here ya go
video
Better vid
One more. google the rest Third one isn't working right now. As for the vids, you can see the difference. She linked these a while ago. the yAOL one is her just before starting a competition building and cutting cycle ( Women do both at once since) they require the same drugs). The second one is two weeks out from a competition. She normally looks like the first one. The second one takes a little more nuts to deal with than most of the guys here have.

Edit: Maybe I'm just being an ass. Good luck, Thunder. I hope you find what you're looking for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunder

Ash256,
I apologise if you think I want to take on good players, I don't. As I said in my first post, I want to avoid loose cannons and sharks. I just wanna play against people, like me, who are learning and have a desire to play properly. To replicate, just to even a small degree, the knowledge and play we see on TV and read in our magazines and books.

And I don't know why I am giving off the impression I think I am good - as I don't and I am doing my best to point this out. I have a good grasp of fundamentals - of ABC poker. That is all.

I think I've played circa 18,000 hands thus far. 5 times I deposited £20 and 5 times, I generated consistent results at $5 SNGs, realising money finishes every other game and turning each investment into £120 within 2 weeks.

And for sure I have huge leaks and I can't even begin to appreciate teh play of Negreanu and co, but in the bad beat examples I gave, the opponents played far, far worse than I :D

As for cash v tourney, it's strange. I can easily make as much money as cashing in a tourney in minutes - without having to defeat 7 others first! But once I do make it, I am reluctant to bet it for fear of losing LOL! And strangely enough, I find it easier to handle the variance in a tourney. If I lose 1/2 my chips, I am still in the game. If I lose 1/2 my chips in a ring game - I have a mild heart attack!

I want my cash game to get better - as that's where the big money lies but tourney play is where my results are better. And I also get more entertainment value (a 45m tourney for just $5) which is great right now.

As for finding somewhere to grind - that's why I've posted! :)

Thx guys!


ps: as a side issue that's popped up in replying here, can you please explain why cash & tourney are seen as completely different games. And, more importantly, why world class players in one can crash in the other?

Surely the concepts of good play is the same for both and I can't see how Helmuth, for example, can be such a poor cash player. He still knows his hands, can bluff, can read people as though he has x ray vision etc.

The only answer I've ever gotten is that cash can be more open as you're not afraid to bust out on a coin flip as you can rebuy. But the rebuy is obvious. It still doesn't explain, to me, why good players struggle to succeed, why they're seen as different or why any decent player would risk a 50-50 decision in either format, unless they had sound reason to do so.

(if this requires a separate thread - just let me know and I'll repost).

Thx

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I seem to have misinterpreted your original post.. meh. :)

- You think you've played 18k hands, did you get that information from a PokerTracker database? If not, you need PokerTracker if you're a student of the game (specifically cash).

- "And strangely enough, I find it easier to handle the variance in a tourney. If I lose 1/2 my chips, I am still in the game. If I lose 1/2 my chips in a ring game - I have a mild heart attack!"
That's an example of the short-term thinking which you could do with getting out of - variance isn't losing 1/2 your chips in a ring game, variance is playing 20k hands of solid high-quality poker over 3 weeks and still being breakeven.

- Bankroll management is essential; 10-buyin downswings happen so 20 buyins is necessary in order to retain some level of comfort.

- Tourney players vs. cash players - I can't give you that much insight here, but I can tell you that stacks are much deeper in cash games than in tournaments and tournament players often lack the experience to play correctly with stacks that are several times deeper than what they're used to.

- Quite often the people you'll play with will be trying to learn about the game, it's just that they'll be much less intelligent than you and will have gone totally the wrong way about it.

- You regard £20 as an "investment". It's not an investment if you're not using proper bankroll management as you're not giving it the chance it should have to come through for you.

- Learning the game seriously can give you some insight into how the TV players think - it's great when you have a chunk of thought process which is similar to that of someone you see on High Stakes Poker because you have an idea of what they thought in order to make their decision.

- I recommend you deposit £100 and play 10NL 6-max on iPoker or somewhere and grind it regardless of the players there.

ok, I haven't read all the responses yet, so I may write more in a few minutes. Most of my play has been cash rather than SnGs, but what I'm saying applies to both...

Fish are eminently beatable. If you can't beat fish you'll be owned by decent players if you ever find them.

Badbeats happen. Deal with it. If you're playing to decent BR specs it shouldn't matter. Decent BR specs means that I know you have well over $1k in roll as you were playing $50NL.

You obviously aren't US based - makes life easier for you. I can't really comment on the client interfaces as I don't know what floats your boat. In my opinion:
Purple is, indeed, very purple. But ok besides that.
Party (and skins) are good.
Pacific is good.
all of these have decent bonus promotions too - take advantage of these (click my op link signature below if you want to see why..)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunder

but only for cash since June.

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you understand poker after three months? wow. All the play money play counts for zero. You have three months of poker experience, remember that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunder

I have a very good understanding of the fundamentals of poker.

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ummm. Nice one. But perhaps there is still a lot to learn? I know next to nothing, but I'm working on it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunder

My foray into cash play has been quite good.

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Two very simple questions. How much have you deposited across sites, all time? How much have you withdrawn across sites, all time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunder

This play continued ... cash games when I indulged in a bit of ring play at.25/.50 level.

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where? sounds good to me...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunder

I can take heart from the fact that I never lost to a better starting hand - but to guys who sucked out: KK lost to K8, AA lost to Q5, KA lost to J6 and QQ lost to 29.

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but maybe you had such a low m that they had odds to call, even with 29! Post the hand histories, it's only a suckout if you were both all-in preflop, and if you were both allin preflop it suggests that you're not really playing good poker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunder

Guys,
I guess the main question is: do you know of any sites that aren't so fishy and crazily loose? Where your bets are actually respected and people don't just call your 6xbb raise simoply because the blinds are lwo and it's cheap to do so.

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you've tried purple, how did you find it apart from the colour? you could maybe play 10NL 6-max on another prima skin. And let me know your alias so I can check the stats I get on you and maybe help you out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunder

ps: as a side issue that's popped up in replying here, can you please explain why cash & tourney are seen as completely different games. And, more importantly, why world class players in one can crash in the other?

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new thread. A start. Cash you are playing 100bb+ deep ALL THE TIME. SnG/MTT play often doesn't even start this deep, and by the final table it's often like 5-10bb deep. And it obviously affects how you can play your cards when a 5xbb raise is all-in...

If you can't beat the microstakes on any site, then you are not a good player. Sure some sites have players with better skill levels than others, but below 100NL the play is nothing short of horrendous all around. I played around half-million hands of 25NL and below on stars before I "understood" how to play.

Like you, I started with play money and TV and that experience was useless. Poker is not poker unless there is a risk. You're bankroll management is horrendous. You have to set stringent rules and ABIDE by them. For the first 9 months I played poker, I was a winning player but couldn't get past a $1000 or so bankroll because of bad bankroll management. I would play 2-$300 worth of tournies in a night and run horribly. I'd then build it back up again in a few days mega-multi-tabling SNGs and then blow it all again. I was stuck in a rut, just trying to get a big score. I couldn't blame the bad beats, just bad BR management.

After cashing out all my money except for $100 because of a very expensive vacation in May, I decided to adhere to strict bankroll management when I got back in August. I layed out a game plan that I promised I would adhere by. I set thresholds. For example: I'd play $1.10 SNGs until $200 when I would play $10NL. If i fell to $150 I'd go back to the SNGs. It was great bankroll management and after only a month I was up to $2000 (I played a crapload of hands). Then I got $4.3k in the $3rebuy, cashed out back to $2000 and am now playing $100NL with a 3.1k bankroll after losing 5 buyins at 200NL. I've now decided to move up to 200NL when I hit $5000 and I'm STICKING TO IT.

The point of my success story is not to brag, but to encourage. Many newbies have the idea that they want to play "good players" who respect their raises so they don't get sucked out on. Let me tell you about good players: they would own you. Solid players at $400NL and above would beat you and I down so fast we wouldn't know what hit us. But that's because we aren't there yet. And if we do get there, we'll adjust to the level.

Right now, you need to adjust to YOUR level; and your level is donkstakes. So play solid poker and good bankroll management and I PROMISE you, in the long run, you will win. All experienced players on this great site had to go through the same thing you're about to, so don't be discouraged. Instead, read, learn, play a lot of hands, and most importantly, be smart about your bankroll.

Guys, it's kind of important that you read the posts above you (i.e: I haven't read all the responses). Everything you are telling him was already said. It's ok to affirm or say it in a different way to help him understand, but don't repeat the same things over and over, it starts to sound like lecturing. He already agreed on having poor bankroll management as we have already talked about. He already stated that he may have just stated his OP improperly.

One thing I want to reiterate from a conversation had months ago on FTR about bankroll management. Everyones risk is different. You can't tell someone what rules to follow when it comes to "bankroll management" When playing micro stakes, everyone has different ability's to either redeposit or not. They may have a steady income and needing 20buy ins at $5NL ($100) may not be necessary. Let's let him get the facts regarding the need to be able to handle variance and what he would like to do to protect himself against the said variance. He needs to know why, let's let him decide how.

Hey guys, many thanks for the comments. Trainer_jyms is correct that everything has been discussed already but still, thank you for taking the time to reply.

As for BR, I read an interesting article where some players are happy to play on their terms and not necessarily the standard BR figures we all know. In fact, it mentioned how Negreanu had a heated debate with Sklansky over this (maybe you know of this argument?) as Negreanu has, on more than one occasion, entered a game with his entire stack which was barely 20bb, in order to kick his poker level up a notch or 2.

His argument was that there is no "one way" there is only what feels right for the individual. I was always quite happy with 5x buy ins as I knew i'd win and even if i didn't, it was just a hobby that I was happy to pay for,

For the record, I am going to take a break from playing for several weeks. Take time out and read, learn, watch, post questions and save up some dough. Then I'm going to deposit a decent whack and adhere strongly to BR management so that I can play at the $10 level on Titan - though I won't drop below $5 SNGs .


PS: Angie's hot. I also liked Corey Everson and even China from WWF.

Sorry to come late to this thread. Thunder, hi and welcome to FTR, it's good to have you here!

If you're playing SNGs, come post some hands or participate in the discussion in the Sit N Go Tactics Forum, we're a friendly bunch over there.

I'll give you that, they are much more friendly and patient. They have to be, they're nuts, they play S&G's. :lol:

Saying you play proper poker is basically saying you don't adjust to beat the players you are playing. You need to pay attention at the tables and get reads instead of paying attention to a book you are reading.

If every one played proper poker than poker would be just as big of a crap shoot as it would be if everyone just went all in with every hand.

Okay I'm not reading all of this shit because I'm lazy so I just skimmed the first post, but two things come to mind:

1. If you can't beat bad players, how do you expect to beat good ones?

2. Beat the bad players and build your shit so you can play against better ones at higher stakes.

Thanks for the invite, I'll be sure to bob on over!

:D