Vi's 3Bet Strategy

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09-14-2007, 08:53 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Vi's 3Bet Strategy

This advice was written for 200NL or lower 6Max games. It applies when effective stacks are 80-125BB preflop. Please deviate from this strategy as necessary when you have either developed good reads or know your opponent has certain assumptions about the way you play.

Continuation bets should be anywhere from 2/3-3/4PSB, depending on what sizing is best for getting all in on the turn. As a note, if you feel you are better at playing after the flop than your opponent, 3betting to a smaller size preflop and making a smaller c-bet on the flop is a good way to set the hand up to play 3 streets, allowing you the greatest opportunity to exercise your skill advantage.

The Rules

1). If an Ace/King hits the flop, bet nearly 100% of the time, regardless of position. These flop types are highly polarized (a.k.a. "hit or miss") and your opponents' aren't going to be calling/raising your flop bets lightly. The other good polarized flop texture to bet on is when the flop comes all of the same suit.
2). If your hand is as strong as a pair of Kings or better, bet/call the flop.

Note: pair + draw hands are considered as strong as a pair of Kings or better in a reraised pot. Nut flush draws are also considered as strong as a pair of Kings or better

The Flop

Out of Position...

1). 2-2 – 9-9 or suited connectors, check/fold.
2). K-xs/A-xs, bet/fold if you have a backdoor straight, backdoor flush draw, or a gutshot. Otherwise, check/fold.
3). A-10 - A-Q, bet/fold.
However if you flop a pair of Tens, Jacks, or Queens AND it is top pair, check/call flop and check/fold turn.
4). A-K, bet/fold.
5). 10-10 - Q-Q, check/call x-x-x flops and check/fold the turn unimproved.
Also check/fold (A/K)-x-x flop. The reason not to bet Ace/King high flops with these pairs is because our hand has a lot of showdown value if our opponent doesn't have an Ace/King. It also helps to lower our c-bet frequency from ~100% on those flop types.
6). K-K+, bet/call.

If you flop a weak draw (7 outs or less), alternate between check/folding and check/raising all in depending on your table image. Bet/fold a blank turn if the flop is checked around.

In Position…

1). 2-2 – 7-7 or suited connectors, check behind.
2). K-xs/A-xs, bet/fold if you have a backdoor straight, flush draw, or a gutshot. Otherwise, check behind.
3). A-K, bet/fold.
4). K-K+, bet/call.

Check behind on the flop if you are holding a draw with 7 outs or less. Fold to a turn bet unimproved, bet if checked to.

Turn/River Play:

If your hand is...

- Worse than a pair of Kings, you are generally finished betting or calling bets.
- A pair of Kings and an Ace comes on the turn, you are generally finished betting or calling bets.
- A pair of Aces, two pair, or a set and an Ace comes on the turn, check/raise all in. If a straight or flush completes, you are generally finished betting or calling bets.
- A straight/flush and an Ace comes on the turn, check/raise all in. If a flush completes and you are holding a straight, you are generally finished betting or calling bets.
- A pair of Kings or better and a non scare card comes on the turn, go all in.

Extra:

- Monotone flops are great to stab at since they are a good hit/miss flop type, but they are not good to float on. If you have an overpair (smaller than Q-Q) on a monotone flop and are faced with a bet, folding is generally your best option.
- Slowplaying on occasion is necessary to help balance the range of hands that you will check with on the flop.
09-15-2007, 01:11 AM
BankItDrew

The biggest glaring weakness in this guide is the lack of board texture, aside from the first #4 (which was not elaborated). You mention quite often about if an ace or king flops blah blah blah, but didn't include much about paired flops, suited flops, straight flops, low flops or high.

Don't get me wrong, I give you mad props for coming up with this, I don't think I'll ever make the time unless sponsored.

Anyways, much of what I do depends on the texture of the board, not just whether or not there's an ace or king.
09-15-2007, 02:13 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

The biggest glaring weakness in this guide is the lack of board texture, aside from the first #4 (which was not elaborated). You mention quite often about if an ace or king flops blah blah blah, but didn't include much about paired flops, suited flops, straight flops, low flops or high.

Anyways, much of what I do depends on the texture of the board, not just whether or not there's an ace or king.

Thanks for taking a look at this Drew.

Can you give me some examples of where including board textures would have a real benefit? One big reason i chose not to include them was that most 3bet calling ranges are pretty narrow, definitely weighted towards pairs and big Ace hands. I don't assume villain is calling my 3bet with suited connectors unless i have been out of line at the table. The more a flop texture is polarized (hit/miss), the better it is for us as the preflop aggressor to bet at it. Polarized flop textures include paired flops, montone flops, and Ace/King high flops.

Also, is the wording too confusing? Any general strategy advice i should add?
09-15-2007, 07:31 PM
bode

great post Vi. Reading your recent strategy posts is really helping me with concepts that i generally use and follow, but i dont really know *why* im doing it, other than thats what you do.
09-16-2007, 07:41 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

great post Vi. Reading your recent strategy posts is really helping me with concepts that i generally use and follow, but i dont really know *why* im doing it, other than thats what you do.

Thanks bode. I definitely benefit from writing these also, as it helps to organize my thoughts outside of my head. This is good inspiration to continue posting poker ideas i am thinking about.
09-18-2007, 07:19 AM
IowaSkinsFan

I think its pretty good.

I don't understand the cbet everytime on the Ace or King high flop one.
09-18-2007, 08:11 AM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I think its pretty good.

I don't understand the cbet everytime on the Ace or King high flop one.

thanks man,

the cbet on Ace/King high flops is partially for balancing, but also because at 200NL and lower i haven't found there are many players capable of floating on hit/miss flops in reraised pots. So any further action on such flops is very often from a strong hand, and not a bluff. Obviously there are some opponents who are capable of floating air at these limits, but on the whole i don't think it's standard. I can see how floating with air on Ace/King high flops against aggressive c-bettors in 3bet pots would be a good play, though.
09-18-2007, 10:33 AM
kingnat

Excellent write-up... I'm have two questions...

1.

Quote:

If you 3bet and are out of position on the flop…

...2). with K-2s – K-6s, bet/fold the flop.

Why the distinction for these cards?... K6s, K5s, K4s, K3s, K2s...?? Am I missing something?

2. Do you feel this is applicable as is to both FR and 6m? Are there adjustments either way?

thanks much man, I've been needing more help at post-flop play with a 3-betting PF strat, because I tend to just act like a freakin' donkey.[/quote]
09-18-2007, 07:43 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingnat

Excellent write-up... I'm have two questions...

1.

Quote:

If you 3bet and are out of position on the flop…

...2). with K-2s – K-6s, bet/fold the flop.

Why the distinction for these cards?... K6s, K5s, K4s, K3s, K2s...?? Am I missing something?

2. Do you feel this is applicable as is to both FR and 6m? Are there adjustments either way?

thanks much man, I've been needing more help at post-flop play with a 3-betting PF strat, because I tend to just act like a freakin' donkey.

[/quote]

1). I think you got it; i meant K-2s, K-3s, etc.

2). I play 6Max, and wrote this with a 6Max audience in mind. I really don't know if/how my advice would translate into a full ring setting. I am confident someone like Miffed or Renton would have a good idea, though.

np kingnat, i definitely needed to figure out what i wanted to do postflop in 3 bet pots too :)
09-19-2007, 04:35 PM
Silly String

Wow, nice. Lots of good thoughts in there. Now please remove this post before the general public(read: fish tank) starts reading and implementing it.
09-26-2007, 05:01 PM
xd40

i have to say i'm not comfortable with ur guide.. has there are so much more variables to be aware of. Specially regarding to the type of player and ur image/previous actions on the table.
09-26-2007, 05:21 PM
Numbr2intheWorld

Quote:

Originally Posted by xd40

i have to say i'm not comfortable with ur guide.. has there are so much more variables to be aware of. Specially regarding to the type of player and ur image/previous actions on the table.

This is for when the opponent is unknown.

And shouldn't this be in the shorthanded forum?
09-28-2007, 12:07 AM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Massimo

Quote:

Originally Posted by xd40

i have to say i'm not comfortable with ur guide.. has there are so much more variables to be aware of. Specially regarding to the type of player and ur image/previous actions on the table.

This is for when the opponent is unknown.

And shouldn't this be in the shorthanded forum?

lol i didn't know that the SH Forum was for anything other than hand histories until today!
10-20-2007, 05:46 PM
thizzSantaCruz

Re: A 3Betting Strategy - Edited

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

5). with 10-10 - Q-Q, check/call x-x-x flop (x < K) then check/fold x-x-x-(A/K) - or another bet on the turn on x-x-x-x.

The wording here confuses me. Are we check/calling a non A or K turn or are we check/folding all turns here?
10-20-2007, 06:37 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Re: A 3Betting Strategy - Edited

Quote:

Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

5). with 10-10 - Q-Q, check/call x-x-x flop (x < K) then check/fold x-x-x-(A/K) - or another bet on the turn on x-x-x-x.

The wording here confuses me. Are we check/calling a non A or K turn or are we check/folding all turns here?

Yea my wording is pretty bad, i'll fix that. I did mean check fold a double barrel on any non set or better completing turn in a 3bet pot with 10-10 - Q-Q versus an unknown.
10-29-2007, 02:48 AM
breathweapon

I think you're wrong about the check/fold after a 3Bet hand with TT-22. If you're out of position, I'm assuming you 3Bet the button, then you should CBet the flop after showing strength with the 3-Bet from the SB just to see whether or not the Button was on an inferior range. If he flat calls and a brick hits, then you should Double Barrel and represent AA-JJ. You have to preserve your equity and your image with these hands, not relinquish your equity and your image by letting your opponent steal the pot or check behind you. If you take down the hand or get the set on the turn or even the river, you're going to make a ridiculous amount of money in the end.

Similarly when 3Betting TT-22 in position, if the opponent flat called the 3-Bet, then I'd put him on AK or even a weaker Ace and CBet the flop if its checked to me. I'd even consider Re-Raising on a low board just to be certain the opponent wasn't CBetting Ace high.

If you're re-raising with TT-22, you are not playing them for set value, so check/folding them like you were playing them for set value is worthless, and I don't even agree with check/folding them even when you are playing them for set value, but in a 3Bet pot there's no way I'm letting those chips get away from me that easily.

If you're visualizing defeat before you even see the flop with a made hand, then you shouldn't have even been playing that hand in the first place.
10-29-2007, 04:03 AM
Vi-Zer0Skill

i don't visualize defeat lol

i think your image would be shit if you bet the flop with every hand in your range after 3betting preflop. but if you want the chips, you need to go for them!

seriously though, yes the smallest pairs are generally better played for set value. but against a good opponent who opens a wide range, sometimes 3betting with the assumption that you fold out a large portion of his opening range is better than trying to flop a set and get paid off. This is particularly true when the effective stacks are closer to 70BB's, or when your opponent is opening from the CO/BTN and will have position.

in position, i prefer to try to showdown a mid pair when i get the opportunity for as cheaply as possible. sometimes the situation will come up where i can put in a value bet on a later street, but i usually play to control the size of the pot when i am holding a medium strength hand.

out of position (this applies to situations when i am in position as well),

Quote:

Originally Posted by I

Why bet with K-x/A-x on the flop, and not pocket pairs?

The reason to c-bet with K-x/A-x hands and not the pocket pairs is their equity against villain's calling range on the flop. If villain calls our c-bet and we are holding 4-4, we generally only have two outs with which to improve our hand. But if villain calls our c-bet when we are holding K-x/A-x we generally have at least four outs and sometimes have a gutshot/OESD/backdoor FD, and therefore significantly more equity.

if you don't agree with my response, then consider that oftentimes in poker different strategies are simiarly effective. maybe you just play differently than me!
10-29-2007, 06:32 AM
breathweapon

How can you not bet the flop after it was checked to you when you were the one that 3Bet preflop? The most common 3Bet hands in position are either AA-JJ or AK, so if you aren't going to represent one of those hands, what were you planning on doing in the first place? You have to stop playing your hand and you have to start playing your board, position and opponent in 3Bet pots. When Negranue Re-Raises with Suited Connectors in position, he's stealing the pot if the opponent checks it to him. No one is going to check the flop with an over pair (if they didn't felt with QQ-JJ, then they don't want AK to be able to hit the turn or represent AA-KK) and they are only going to hit their set 1/8th of the time. Even when they CBet with AK or QQ-JJ, you can either fold and maintain your image or re-raise with air and force them off of their hand. That's one of the reasons people felt with AK or QQ-JJ OOP so often, they're miserable hands to CBet with after you've been re-raised by some one in position.

Edit: Ok, the only pot you don't try and steal in that situation is a pot with an Ace, King or possibly even a Queen on the board that was checked to you, because AK or AQ has no reason to bet there and every reason to induce a bluff from you. The number of people who felt themselves in position against AK with KK-JJ after a check on that board is ridiculous at 200NL and below.

Even when you're on the button and stealing the blinds with Suited Connectors, you can afford to call a re-raise because you're either in the perfect situation to bust him or re-steal some one that was just defending their blinds. The only way you can be in a 3Bet pot OOP with Suited Connectors is if you were trying to steal the BB from the SB, in which case you shouldn't have called the 3Bet to begin with.

I agree with you when you are OOP and 3Bet into, because flat calling the 3Bet is for set value, and all you can do there is feign an Ace/King and hope that KK/QQ-JJ folds, which requires a read. You can't even effectively CBet there because an Over Pair or a Set is going to felt you and AK may Re-raise or float you.

If you aren't the pre-flop aggressor or you don't have position in a 3Bet pot, then you need to either fold your cards or push your stack if the board didn't give you anything to draw or bluff with. Always folding your cards in position or with initiative, regardless of what you're holding, is no way to play poker. Folding equity be damned, position and initiative are their own equity.

There's always room for disagreement, but tautologies in those two instances are never going to hold.
11-07-2007, 08:30 PM
snugglez88

seems reasonable, lemme know how it works out.
11-07-2007, 08:37 PM
thizzSantaCruz

I think breathweapon brings up a lot of good points but any semi-thinking player is going to relize you are not getting dealt the goods when we are 3betting lite. I think breathweapons strategy seems to be more for a tight 3better. OPs post refers to people that are 3betting about 7-8% of their hands. (I'm guessing correct me if I am wrong here)
11-07-2007, 10:57 PM
IowaSkinsFan

you have to think of what your opponent is going to fold breathweapon.
11-08-2007, 08:24 AM
Da GOAT

very nice Vi, interesting that you dont c/b alot of the time in certain spots. ill keep such in mind when i play another sesh, im quilty of c/b'ing too much sometimes tho i when i dont c/b ive a reason not too (not just a whim to bring my % down)
11-10-2007, 04:11 PM
breathweapon

Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

you have to think of what your opponent is going to fold breathweapon.

I'm having mixed results, on an Ace or King (or even Queen) high board it's not that difficult to get some one to fold QQ-JJ either in position or out of position, if you were calling a 3Bet with TT-22 for set value or Suited Connectors against the blinds, given how often the blinds 3Bet with marginal holdings, if they check it to you, you're either stealing or floating. If some one 3Bets OP, some one flat calls from the button and then the blind decides to set up a C/raise, that has to be one of the queerest, and perhaps one of the most brilliant, plays to expect from him.

3Betting is a lot different in 6Max and around the blinds tho', I honestly think it's more important, or at least more interesting, than 3Bet pots in general 10Max. Honestly, you can just 4Bet with AA-KK, call to set or call and look for an Ace or King with QQ-JJ, not even bother with 3Betting or 4Betting AK, call to set with TT-22 and bluff the Ace or King if its checked to you in 10Max cash games and do fine.

It's really a light 3Betting table/blinds that makes you want to pull your hair out. When the MO is to just 3Bet instead of call, it can really drive you bat shit.
11-11-2007, 12:19 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz

I think breathweapon brings up a lot of good points but any semi-thinking player is going to relize you are not getting dealt the goods when we are 3betting lite. I think breathweapons strategy seems to be more for a tight 3better. OPs post refers to people that are 3betting about 7-8% of their hands. (I'm guessing correct me if I am wrong here)

I'm sure i 3bet something close to that percent preflop. I'll make a note of that somewhere at the top of the post.

btw this approach seems to be working fine for me at 400NL, although i have to make some more moves on the turn and river to pick up a few of these reraised pots.
11-16-2007, 06:45 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

I made a lot of revisions to this tonight. Tell me what you think!
11-19-2007, 06:14 AM
arkana

I think you have to classify a weak draw as 7 or less outs.

If you have 8 or 9 (clean) outs you should have the odds to call an all in the flop due to the dead money in the pot. With the added folding equity you get from check raising or leading check folding would be the worst option.
11-19-2007, 07:18 AM
Rondavu

I like where this is going. Maybe take more time in writing it? The format hurts my eyes.
11-19-2007, 09:20 AM
bode

is this stickied yet? also should prob be in the SH forum
11-19-2007, 01:23 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkana

I think you have to classify a weak draw as 7 or less outs.

If you have 8 or 9 (clean) outs you should have the odds to call an all in the flop due to the dead money in the pot. With the added folding equity you get from check raising or leading check folding would be the worst option.

this is a really good suggestion, thanks for posting. Particularly considering we are going to be bet/folding in 3bet pots with a pretty high frequency using this strategy, our 8+ out draws are good to add to our bet/3bet/call AI range.
11-20-2007, 04:21 AM
minSim

This is getting really nice VI !

I'll think of it in detail when I find some time.

What's the general calling range you assigned to a villain when he's IP and OOP?
11-20-2007, 04:46 AM
gabe

just dont play this way and let people know you play this way
02-11-2008, 09:57 AM
minSim

VI,

Could you comment some more on these:

OOP

Quote:

1). 2-2 – 9-9 or suited connectors, check/fold.

I guess you aren't c/fing a 224 flop or 237? Are you always folding to 1 or more overcards? Does it matter which overcard it is?
Also shouldn't we protect our PP's against overcards on for example 22J flops? c/f feels like folding the best hand too often, I see reasons to c/c tbh.

Quote:

5). 10-10 - Q-Q, check/call x-x-x flops and check/fold the turn unimproved.
Also check/fold (A/K)-x-x flop. The reason not to bet Ace/King high flops with these pairs is because our hand has a lot of showdown value if our opponent doesn't have an Ace/King. It also helps to lower our c-bet frequency from ~100% on those flop types.

Should we really be c/fing A/K high flops while being the agressor? Don't we still usually have the best hand with TT-QQ as there aren't many A's and K's in villains calling range?
I would usually b/f or c/c flop and c/f turn. I wonder how good/bad that is.

IP

Quote:

1). 2-2 – 7-7 or suited connectors, check behind

Again shouldn't we protect our hand against overcards with b/f-ing?
Are we calling any turn bet when the flop checks trough?

TURN/RIVER
Ever double barreling/shoving an A or K turn/river?
02-17-2008, 01:15 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

VI,

Could you comment some more on these:

OOP

Quote:

1). 2-2 – 9-9 or suited connectors, check/fold.

I guess you aren't c/fing a 224 flop or 237? Are you always folding to 1 or more overcards? Does it matter which overcard it is?Also shouldn't we protect our PP's against overcards on for example 22J flops? c/f feels like folding the best hand too often, I see reasons to c/c tbh.

Consider what hands we are going to be check/calling the flop with - if we were to follow my guide verbatim. Mostly it's small pairs and 10-10-Q-Q, occasionally a slowplay of some kind. That range is extremely vulnerable to a double barrel (b/c we almost always fold to an unknown). That's why we don't want to be c/c'ing the flop with a wide range unless we are planning to call a turn bet/shove on most turns - which would be bad without more information on our opponent at the stakes this guide was written for.

It's very important to remember this advice applies best to situations where we lack specific reads on our opponents. I am giving up with these small pairs in these situations when i know little or nothing about my opponent and his 3bet calling range or aggression levels postflop in reraised pots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

Quote:

5). 10-10 - Q-Q, check/call x-x-x flops and check/fold the turn unimproved.
Also check/fold (A/K)-x-x flop. The reason not to bet Ace/King high flops with these pairs is because our hand has a lot of showdown value if our opponent doesn't have an Ace/King. It also helps to lower our c-bet frequency from ~100% on those flop types.

Should we really be c/fing A/K high flops while being the agressor? Don't we still usually have the best hand with TT-QQ as there aren't many A's and K's in villains calling range?
I would usually b/f or c/c flop and c/f turn. I wonder how good/bad that is.

I advocated check/folding those flops because we aren't going to be able to call a turn bet/shove if we check/call the flop. With reads, certainly it's going to be correct sometimes to c/c the flop and turn, or c/c flop and c/f turn (if we know our opp is very passive after the flop in RR pots).

Again, look at the range of hands we would c/c these flop types with, following my guide verbatim. It's almost exclusively 10-10/Q-Q! That's a very weak range on those board types.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

IP

Quote:

1). 2-2 – 7-7 or suited connectors, check behind

Again shouldn't we protect our hand against overcards with b/f-ing?
Are we calling any turn bet when the flop checks trough?

We can never call a check/shove, and we don't want to bloat the pot on the
flop because then we can't bet on the turn or river. Betting on the turn once checked to though does seem wise since at that point the benefits of "protecting our hand" outweigh the downside of building a bigger pot (since there is only one street left, and our opp is likely to check to us on the river if we bet the turn) and because a turn c/r is unlikely considering the flop checked through. BUT this will only work if our opponent isn't a good hand reader and knows that we aren't checking a lot of strong hands behind. If you like this move a lot and your opponent is passive then i would suggest checking more strong hands behind on the flop to balance your range here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

TURN/RIVER
Ever double barreling/shoving an A or K turn/river?

Not against an unknown, because assuming we are unknown to them their calling range on the flop should be small and mostly include hands that aren't folding to a turn bet/shove.
02-18-2011, 10:59 AM
Vi-Zer0Skill

ahhh 2007, I miss the good ol days! I could wreck 2007 me HU4rollz, yet I was playing the highest stakes back then. LOL

if you're reading this in 2011, know this; today I play nothing like the guide I wrote. How people play poker and what plays have become fashionable (and other plays that will someday become 'standard'/fashionable) has changed considerably since I put this outline together. Besides, most people playing today are beyond needing anything like this material to know how to play postflop in 3b pots.
02-18-2011, 09:31 PM
!Luck

I wish I took poker seriously back in 2004.
02-18-2011, 09:46 PM
kmind

Vi - I thought about making a huge 3betting guide to force myself to research very indepthly about the subject and the first thing in my mind was to find this thread. I remember when you posted this and was amazed. You're the man!
02-21-2011, 03:05 PM
Penneywize

Quote:

Originally Posted by !Luck

I wish I took poker seriously back in 2004.

You're telling me.