$10NL hands from today w/ q's

UB $10NL , no real reads.

Hand #1: Landed this hand w/ a dead blind. Don't consider this strong enough to raise PF. Read MPs bet on the flop as pair or OCs trying to protect against FD. Raised him w/ TPTK and got re-reraised. Called it. Turn helped out SDs. He pushed... I read as overpair, or set and folded. Was this okay?

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($5.69)
MP2 ($12.34)
MP3 ($5.43)
Hero ($5)
Button ($.49)
SB ($9.86)
BB ($4.83)
UTG ($5)
UTG+1 ($9.90)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10. UTG posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG (poster) checks, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.50) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets $0.5, Hero raises to $1.5, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 raises to $2.5, Hero calls $1.

Turn: ($5.50) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets $3.09 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $2.41

Hand #2: I still believe my fold was correct, but turns out I got pushed out for nothing. Anything you'd suggest I do differently here?

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP3 ($15.67)
CO ($9.99)
Button ($9.66)
Hero ($8.25)
BB ($16.93)
UTG ($6.05)
UTG+1 ($11.06)
MP1 ($9.30)
MP2 ($6.59)

Preflop: Hero is SB with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/5c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4c.gif.
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, Hero completes, Byron calls $0.05.

Flop: ($0.55) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/6h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/5d.gif (6 players)
Hero bets $0.6, BB folds, UTG calls $0.60, MP1 folds, CO folds, Button calls $0.60.

Turn: ($2.35) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ah.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $1, Button calls $1, Hero folds.

River: ($4.35) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2h.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $4.35

Hand #3: I flat out never know what to do in these situations. So when in doubt I shift uncomfortably in my seat, mad dog the wall, make some kind of dumb ass passive move, and eventually fold. Help!

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($5)
UTG ($15.29)
UTG+1 ($11.11)
MP1 ($4.83)
MP2 ($14.70)
MP3 ($8.37)
CO ($7.09)
Button ($9.63)
SB ($5.93)

Preflop: Hero is BB with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/js.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/kd.gif.
4 folds, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.30) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qd.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qs.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ks.gif (4 players)
SB bets $0.4, Hero calls $0.40, UTG folds, CO folds.

Turn: ($1.10) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jd.gif (2 players)
SB bets $1.2, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $1.10

Hand #4: Was this donkish on my part? From the flop I had J-high flush draw and OESD. By the time he pushed, I put him on trip tens ( :shock: I got one right!), but felt it was still the right thing to call. Of course all this math was being done in my head during the 6 seconds that UB gives u to act (WTF is my time bank?!?!) It paid off, but I don't want to be building bad habits just cause they reinforce every now and then (if I wanted that I'd be off playing the slots at Sultans 7....)

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($12.07)
UTG+1 ($11.54)
MP1 ($11.03)
Hero ($6.20)
MP3 ($16.93)
CO ($4.85)
Button ($9.03)
SB ($10.11)
BB ($5.42)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/js.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/9s.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, Byron calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, SB (poster) checks.

Flop: ($0.60) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ts.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/8h.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $0.5, CO calls $0.50, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($1.60) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/th.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $1.3, CO goes all-in for $4.25, Hero calls.

River: ($4.20) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/as.gif (3 players)

Final Pot: $4.20

An overall comment: fold more than you raise more than you call....

Hand 1 I fold to the flop 3-bet. Definitely fold the turn

Hand 2. Pre-flop and flop are fine. Bet the turn! Let them prove they have a hand, scare them into thinking you have a flush, etc. You checking suggests that you are scared of the ace, if i was villain holding ATen i raise here, repping the flush and thinking I still probably have the best hand.
As played you are in a nasty position, note that UTG is raising less than half pot, I would consider checkraising all-in, but probably fold.

Hand 3: you have a very good hand. Maybe you are way, way ahead. SB bets out here with most holdings, I re-raise to try and find out where I stand. Just calling here is way too passive, raise or fold.

Hand 4. It's nice to get lucky sometimes. You got lucky. You put villain on trips. That means that 8s is not an out, nor is xs where x is villain's other hole card. How many outs does that leave? 33 and 88 also play this line, then you are drawing dead. I would consider checking the turn, hoping to see a cheap river. As played I fold.

re: #4 - I got as far as counting 13 outs. 9 flush outs less the 8 and his second card (so 7) and then 8 OESD outs less the 2 spades (so 6). Realized could already be dead against 33 or 88, but felt assuming that holding would be playing too scared. I also put other PPs in his range as an alternative to having trips. Felting my FD + OESD draw against his trips or two pair seemed okay. Other options left him drawing to a higher FD (don't see that happening with the push), him holding T8 (which was the other one that DID really give me pause...) or the chance the River would pair him up. I didn't think too much about T3 even tho' was limped 'cause that seemed outside the realm of the likely as well...

And yes, I did get lucky... BUT was it an error for him to push over with the trips? If so, then my call was technically correct.

<<sigh>> this sh!t just doesn't get simple.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sarbox68

BUT was it an error for him to push over with the trips? If so, then my call was technically correct.

<<sigh>> this sh!t just doesn't get simple.....

---

how can it be an error if it forces opp to either fold or call without odds. If villain is confident they are currently ahead then it is good play on such a draw-heavy board.

in hand 1 fold to flop 3bet

in hand 4 if you think you have 13 outs you don't have good enough odds to call. it's close but it is slightly -EV. the pot = 7.15 and it is 2.95 to call. 13 outs = about 28% to hit, or about 1 in 3.5 times. so 2.5 times you will lose a total of 7.37 and 1 time you will win 7.15.

hand one...you were beat on the flop. usually, a bet, and a RR after you raise, means something better than a 9. you are vulnerable here. your TPTK was worth the raise, imo, but he either was sick of you being aggressive (assuming you are) or he had it. either way, fold flop and grab a better spot to put 25%+ of your stack in the middle...at a $10 game.

hand two...nothing to suggest here. your fold was absolutely correct. i like your flop bet. however, i dont know if i call the turn. aces up beats you, but prolly doesnt bet the flush. yes, thats a weak bet, but too many hands beat you now. top two, sets, straights, flushes...some have redraws to an even better hand. YOUR two pair is as strong as high card on this board. fold turn.

hand three...i play it totally differently. bear in mind, i overplay KJ, but...RAISE pf and fire a cbet into just about any board, youre already HU, certainly you can outplay your opponent post flop HU...and by "outplay" i dont mean outBET, i mean you will make less mistakes in a marginal situation, but extract more value when you are strong. anyway, as played, i would normally say RAISE the flop bet, but i think it may be better to call lately. you are WA/WB here, imo. if he has no Q, you should be way ahead, and he will continue to try and push you off...maybe with a lesser K (it was limped btw). however, if he flopped trips, you need to control the pot as best you can. prolly a smarter line than my "power poker with marginal, trap hands." i dont see how you fold the turn here...yet. sure, AT got there, but your kicker still plays against weaker K's. and a T or A still is on a draw. pp's you have crushed. the only things i see you behind are the obvious Q and AK (which wouldnt have limped pf, generally). with a more aggressive line, i dont think he bets here w/o the Q, but i dont see how you can tell w/o popping him somewhere (goes back to my traditional line here). imo, i think that taking a position of strength with marginally powerful hands is best in HU pots and high boards.

hand four...i dont know that i like the calling of the push, either. i like the results, but thats about it. well, the flop bet was nice. with a combo-draw, i'm sure you know that the flop is the spot to get the money in...when you are likely favored. the turn, you are no longer the favorite, and if you think a T gave him trips...that makes the push even worse. you did your job, imo, you bet strong...he pushed. he's repping the T, not a draw. bad call, imo.


seems to me you like to take hands WAY too far when you know you shouldnt be. in limit that can be rewarded, but in NL, its the fastest way to BROKESVILLE.

do more raising early, do more folding late to aggression, especially when you were the aggressor. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daven

An overall comment: fold more than you raise more than you call....

---

very true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daven

Hand 3: you have a very good hand. Maybe you are way, way ahead. SB bets out here with most holdings, I re-raise to try and find out where I stand. Just calling here is way too passive, raise or fold.

---

if you are WAY, WAY ahead, why do you RR the flop to "find out where you stand?" a bit contradictory. calling is not too passive when you have a villain leading into you, and you are confident you are well ahead in the hand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sarbox68

re: #4 - I got as far as counting 13 outs... Felting my FD + OESD draw against his trips or two pair seemed okay.

---

on the FLOP, yes. 13 X 4 = 52%, roughly. but, on the turn, you lose HALF your equity. you are now only 13 X 2 = 26%...not pushing territory. if you miss the chance to felt the hand on the flop, which you did through no fault of your own, you kind of missed your chance to felt the hand w/o a ton of FE to make up for your lost equity...which you dont have if the T hits villain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sarbox68

And yes, I did get lucky... BUT was it an error for him to push over with the trips? If so, then my call was technically correct.

---

how is pushing over with trips an error? you had shit but a draw (not even to the nuts i may add), not that he knew that. but, he figures he has FE, since he called your flop bet and the board threw up a scary card. since he has the T, tho, he is heavily favored against all but a set that just boated, and if you are drawing to straights/flushes/combos, he has 10 outs to redraw better than what you could possibly make.

not to be rude, but your call, imo, was technically INcorrect. the flop is where you get frisky with combos...not the turn, expecially once the board pairs. (see horribly rough calcs above ;) )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

seems to me you like to take hands WAY too far when you know you shouldnt be. in limit that can be rewarded, but in NL, its the fastest way to BROKESVILLE.

do more raising early, do more folding late to aggression, especially when you were the aggressor. :)

---

You know, I banish one demon and now you gotta bring up another... :wink:

When I first kicked over to $10NL, I was playing way too passive, getting pushed out and sizing my bets too small. I've seen some real improvement in that area and it's showing in my win rate.

Now my new problem is exactly what you mention. I'm usually aggressive enough PF and on the Flop... but if I find myself still in the hand on the Turn (esp if unimproved...) I have a hard time getting away from the hand.

I know it's a lot more complicated than this, but humor me for a second... Is it a good "starting point" to say if I play aggressively thru PF & F (3/4-PS bets), that it's usually the right thing to do to take strong Turn/River push-back at face value (i.e. getting bet into or Raised hard) and back off (aka usually fold). My fear is I'm being read as "weak/tight" and they're just pushing me off a hand... but I guess if I've sized my bets/raises right to that point, they're having to put a lot in to just "push me off my hand" and the odds are pretty good they've got the goods.

Of course, have to take into account player reads (had a 45/12/8 push 2x PS all-in on the river against my TPTK w/ J6o air yesterday...), the nature of the board (altho' picking up who has a set and who doesn't is hard for me...), stack size and my table image....

But aside from all that :shock: , does that sound right?

i swear i just took a look in the mirror. lol.

i can tell you this much. in golf, i can cure your slice...because i've cured my own in several different ways (spenda can appreciate that one. ;) ) but, in poker, i am not the best one to cure the question you just posed. i am still very much an amatuer in that i can identify the problem, but dont know how to fix it. so read my signature, and take anything i say with the proverbial grain of salt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Now my new problem is exactly what you mention. I'm usually aggressive enough PF and on the Flop... but if I find myself still in the hand on the Turn (esp if unimproved...) I have a hard time getting away from the hand.

---

however, this part rang especially true for me.

you, right now, are experiencing the "pendulum theorem." when you are learning/growing, you will swing from one extreme to the other. back and forth, back and forth. :wall: you've just swung the other way, and are going to find the middle eventually. you are too dedicated to improvement, based on your posts. :clap:

and yes, take the push-back as strenght...UNLESS YOU HAVE A READ that it doesnt mean shit. its like "3betting light." dont 4bet someone because you assume they are 3betting light. you need some proof. whether it be a pfr of 20+ or a hand you saw showdown, you need proof before you "play back." this isnt prolly as true once you get a good bit higher in levels, but at 25, and i assume to 100, its true. "playing back" at someone you suspect is putting a move on you, W/O A READ, is spew at lower stakes. and, i do it all the time still :doh: but am getting better slowly.

i hate being bullied, and my default play is to shove them back. thats an "emotional" move/play, and isnt smart in poker. see how its kind of tilty?

if you bet 3/4, and got called, bet 3/4 again, and got called/raised...believe them, unless you have a great hand/redraw or you have proof that they are playing back at the table.

thats step one to stopping the overplaying of marginal holdings. and, imo, it can be a huge leak.

you'll figure it out. patience, danielson.

Hand 1 I probably call, he has TP, you beat almost all of the 9x combos, and he could easily have a flush draw. No way a better hand than yours doesn't just shove the flop.

Hand 2 I b/f the turn

Hand 3 Meh

Hand 4 is close, try to figure out which T's are in his range that make your outs dirty. The 8s is certainly not an out and if he holds QT/T7 you're in a lot of trouble. If he was full-stacked I would probably c/r shove the turn AI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daven

Hand 3: you have a very good hand. Maybe you are way, way ahead. SB bets out here with most holdings, I re-raise to try and find out where I stand. Just calling here is way too passive, raise or fold.

---

if you are WAY, WAY ahead, why do you RR the flop to "find out where you stand?" a bit contradictory. calling is not too passive when you have a villain leading into you, and you are confident you are well ahead in the hand.

---

because I want to find out now. I might also be way, way behind. I don't mind winning a small pot now, better than having to make a difficult decision when he pushes next street...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

if he has no Q, you should be way ahead, and he will continue to try and push you off...maybe with a lesser K

---

do you feel comfortable calling 3 streets hoping he has a weaker K? sb can have absolutely anything here (any Q, any K, flush draw, straight draw, combo draw). the draws are less likely to lead this flop though. most likely you are WA/WB. now normally we shouldn't bet/raise in a WA/WB situation if we think that all weaker hands will fold (this is easier said than done in some spots cuz it can just make things very uncomfortable for us). i don't think a weaker K always auto-folds to a flop raise here though. i prefer a raise and then try to showdown cheap unimproved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daven

because I want to find out now. I might also be way, way behind. I don't mind winning a small pot now, better than having to make a difficult decision when he pushes next street...

---

keep in mind daven that betting/raising just to find out where you're at should not be a sole reason for doing so. yes, it can make your decision easier sometimes, but you should just be aware that in WA/WB spots where weaker hands always fold the more passive line makes more money in the longrun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

but you should just be aware that in WA/WB spots where weaker hands always fold the more passive line makes more money in the longrun.

---

You're right, seems that i have trouble maximising my pays from monsters. Although I like this one (from this morning) a lot. Turn was a scare card, once villain re-raised the turn I decided I was either splitting (both had aces) or way behind (decided it was about 70%likely villain held an ace, 30% chance of a 6), but with a nice draw to the nuts...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($5.37)
UTG ($4.40)
Hero ($4.38)
Button ($4.18)
SB ($4.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
UTG calls $0.04, Hero calls $0.04, Button calls $0.04, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.22) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $0.08, Hero calls $0.08, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: ($0.38) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.2, UTG raises to $0.68, Hero calls $0.48.

River: ($1.74) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $0.56, Hero raises to $3.36, UTG calls $2.80.

Final Pot: $8.46

Results in white below:
UTG has Kc 6d (straight, six high).
Hero has Ah 5h (straight flush, five high).
Outcome: Hero wins $8.46.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daven

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daven

Hand 3: you have a very good hand. Maybe you are way, way ahead. SB bets out here with most holdings, I re-raise to try and find out where I stand. Just calling here is way too passive, raise or fold.

---

if you are WAY, WAY ahead, why do you RR the flop to "find out where you stand?" a bit contradictory. calling is not too passive when you have a villain leading into you, and you are confident you are well ahead in the hand.

---

because I want to find out now. I might also be way, way behind. I don't mind winning a small pot now, better than having to make a difficult decision when he pushes next street...

---

i fall into the same line of thinking ALL THE TIME here (watch my response to martin next) and it COSTS ME money. it took me a long time to figure this out, but i may finally have it.

run through it. if you are WA, raising folds off hands that would continue if you called, or better yet, hands that may have led out again. that costs you money by taking down small pots that should have been bigger. if you are WB, raising is really bad, as you are putting money in a pot with the worst of it. if you raise, and he smooth calls...now what did you learn about your WA/WB situation? nothing. you accidentally start to trap yourself in a pot you have no business being in.

here is not the greatest example of WA/WB, but it IS a spot where i usually would get VERY aggressive, and it would be bad to do so.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($10.10)
UTG ($10.45)
MP ($3.75)
CO ($3.45)
Button ($12.10)
SB ($13.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.35) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $0.3, MP folds, CO raises to $0.6, Hero calls $0.30.
what calls me? i am classically WA/WB here. he limped pf, should rule out JJ+, but doesnt rule out other pp's, or a crazy 2Xs...like an A, K, Q looking for a flush draw on the flop. and i will never know the difference if i bet because they may not raise me back to tell me.

Turn: ($1.55) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.
this is where i pull the trigger usually, but for some reason i was still thinking that worse hands wont call me if i bet here, but better hands will certainly call me. oop sucks.

River: ($1.55) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.5, Hero calls $0.50.
look how small that bet was!! its prolly something that beats me, but i get info to note up for under a buck (.10 limp, .30 flop, nothing on turn, .50 river...$0.90) if i lose, i lose the absolute minimum, imo. and if i win, i will see absolute trash that most likely will prove to me that it would have folded to any further bet.

Final Pot: $2.55
he showed A2 for the boat, and took down a whopping $2.55. thanks for letting me off the hook cheap.

point is...if i get aggressive, it costs me more in the long run here. if he has 99, i doubt he calls a turn bet ui. raising, more often than not here, wins small pots and loses big ones. not a money maker in a limped pot pf.

you got TPTK down, choppah
nh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

if he has no Q, you should be way ahead, and he will continue to try and push you off...maybe with a lesser K

---

do you feel comfortable calling 3 streets hoping he has a weaker K? sb can have absolutely anything here (any Q, any K, flush draw, straight draw, combo draw). the draws are less likely to lead this flop though. most likely you are WA/WB. now normally we shouldn't bet/raise in a WA/WB situation if we think that all weaker hands will fold (this is easier said than done in some spots cuz it can just make things very uncomfortable for us). i don't think a weaker K always auto-folds to a flop raise here though. i prefer a raise and then try to showdown cheap unimproved.

---

thats maybe better advice, but my point was about being WA/WB and not giving up to quickly here. if you raise, though, a Q may call, may shove over, or anything in between. at what point are you willing to let go?

my example of the weak K was trying to point out what could be around and betting still...i give more credit to TT, 99, etc. yeah, its a drawy board that you dont want to give free cards to, and you would like to find out if the Q is out, i was more pointing out a thought process to avoid folding too early.

if a draw completes, yeah, you dug your grave, too. but with all those possibilities out there, i dont see raising doing anything to define your relative strength. draws call, Q may call, too...unless he's scared of the draws. dont you think if you raise, a combo like JsTs may push over, and you give up the better hand? obv, there are different ways to play the hand, and i am by no means saying mine is the best way.

So to summarize for my sometimes overly dense and underly receptive sense of comprehension (damn all that weed when I was younger...!)...

1) In a WA/WB scenario, raising for information is not the best line. If I'm WA, I'll fold out a pot I could have called down for more. If I'm WB, I'm not likely to learn much I can use, esp OOP.
2) Price out calling down aggression. If it gets too expensive, just pick another hand to get jiggy with, recognizing that IF we are WA, villain is going to have to make it pricey based on the same kind of decision.
3) Sometimes, you're just, well... f-d....

Did I miss anything super obvious?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

you got TPTK down, choppah
nh

---

thx, jack. i would pm this to you, but it may have value to others here, as well.

please no one think i am trying to be the "authority" on the subject...i have simply been focusing very heavily on TPTK situations lately because i am sick of getting burned by overplaying it.

i read this somewhere, but would implement it on occasion...NOT SLOWPLAYING AS A RULE. but, think of the reasoning here...

lets say the board is dry. A 8 4 rainbow and you hold AK. you raised pf, and villain (maybe two) called. you are either so ahead here or so behind. if you are oop, why would you lead out or c/r? you fold off absolutely everything but AQ (maybe) and 88, 44. ok, we all may know that one. but, lets reverse positions.

you are now in position, and get donk bet. why would you ever raise here? (i used to for the sake of "taking initiative" or "getting value" or "F you big guy...i got it this time" ALL BAD) again, why raise? to find out where you stand? NO. let them keep leading. AQ leads. KK leads. hell, TT or KQ may lead to. with all that leading into you, why would you raise them off? sure, 88 may lead...prolly not. he wants AK to lead into him!! let them keep leading here, and take more money. you will lose some times...oh well. but you will lose the minimum. if you get frisky with the worst of it, you will lose your stack a lot more often than you can take a gillion small pots to overcome.

this is the most simplistic case of WA/WB i can think of. of course, board textures and your own holdings change everything, and some times you have to bet at some point...like the KJ hand above probably. but when you are WA/WB you may want to think twice about WHY you are raising, and WHAT you are trying to accomplish.

this coming from the most chronic of all "raising for the case of raising alone" people you will ever meet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

if you raise, though, a Q may call, may shove over, or anything in between. at what point are you willing to let go?

---

i said raise and then showdown cheap unimproved so you let go if he comes over the top or leads big on the turn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

my example of the weak K was trying to point out what could be around and betting still...i give more credit to TT, 99, etc. yeah, its a drawy board that you dont want to give free cards to, and you would like to find out if the Q is out, i was more pointing out a thought process to avoid folding too early.

if a draw completes, yeah, you dug your grave, too. but with all those possibilities out there, i dont see raising doing anything to define your relative strength. draws call, Q may call, too...unless he's scared of the draws.

---

raising isn't about "defining our relative strength." i'm not even sure what that means exactly. maybe you forgot but it's a good thing when draws call.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

dont you think if you raise, a combo like JsTs may push over, and you give up the better hand?

---

hero has the Js. also, you can't live in constant fear of villain shoving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

lets say the board is dry. A 8 4 rainbow and you hold AK. you raised pf, and villain (maybe two) called. you are either so ahead here or so behind. if you are oop, why would you lead out or c/r? you fold off absolutely everything but AQ (maybe) and 88, 44.

---

re-think this man. why would an ace auto-fold to a flop bet here? why would you even consider that AQ folds? lots of aces call a flop bet here. you should bet for value cuz weaker hands don't auto-fold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sarbox68

So to summarize for my sometimes overly dense and underly receptive sense of comprehension (damn all that weed when I was younger...!)...

1) In a WA/WB scenario, raising for information is not the best line. If I'm WA, I'll fold out a pot I could have called down for more. If I'm WB, I'm not likely to learn much I can use, esp OOP.

---

1) The passive line for WA/WB is only good when weaker hands don't auto-fold. If there are weaker hands that will call then you should bet/raise. Like if you have AA and the flop is something like 622 rainbow you are in a WA/WB situation but there are lots of weaker hands that will call so passive isn't best. Also, raising for information is never the best line. You need a better reason to raise than for info alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

1) The passive line for WA/WB is only good when weaker hands don't auto-fold. If there are weaker hands that will call then you should bet/raise.

---

Ahhh... and the $1,000,000 newbie question.....

...how the ^%&#@*@#$!!! am i supposed to read whether they'll fold weaker hands? Seriously, is there a PT type of "stat" that I can look at to get a sense for this? Or do I pretty much have to catch enough of their SD hands to deduce this on my own? Any guidance would be 'preciated...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

1) The passive line for WA/WB is only good when weaker hands don't auto-fold. If there are weaker hands that will call then you should bet/raise.

---

Ahhh... and the $1,000,000 newbie question.....

...how the ^%&#@*@#$!!! am i supposed to read whether they'll fold weaker hands? Seriously, is there a PT type of "stat" that I can look at to get a sense for this? Or do I pretty much have to catch enough of their SD hands to deduce this on my own? Any guidance would be 'preciated...

---

use the range that you assign to them. look at the example i gave with AA. obviously there are weaker hands that will call. a very common example of when weaker hands won't call is when you have KK on an A-high flop like A94 rainbow.