Simple hand reading exercise

I thought this might be a good thing to post in here. What does BB have? Don't answer if you aren't a beginner :D

$10NL (8 Players)
Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($10)
MP1 ($11.35)
MP2 ($9.80)
CO ($16.10)
Button ($3.40)
SB ($10.25)
BB ($10)
Hero ($10.90)

Preflop: Hero is UTG
Hero calls $0.10, 3 folds, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB completes, BB raises to $0.6, Hero calls $0.40, CO calls $0.40, SB folds.

Flop: ($1.70) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.85, CO folds, BB calls $0.85.

Turn: ($3.40) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($3.40) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $3.40

I'll play...

Raising 6x from the BB I would assume 99+ or some mixed broadway. If really loose, maybe lower pp or suited connectors trying to buy the pot straight out.

He then checks the flop but only calls a 1/2PSB. So now I'm thinking a made overpair is unlikely 'cause he would have either led out or CR to try and push out your possible OESD. This doesn't happen. But he still likes his hand enough to not be able to lay it down. To me that's probably AK, AQ or KQ. Of these, I can only see AK or AQ making the PF raise OOP. The other option is 56 or A2, altho' I don't really like either of those for the PFR either.

He checks through the turn, so TT is definitely out of the picture. And checks through the 7 , meaning 56 is done... and I didn't really like A2 anyhoo.

So that puts me on AK or AQ.

Ok here I go:

Preflop: With 2 limpers and SB completing I would put him on a pretty tight range, something like TT+, AJs+, AJo+, KQs

Flop: On that flop with a c/c I don't think he has a med pp, because he would want to raise somewhere in there. I do think that he could see your bet as a steal because it probably did not coordinate with you either (unless you hit a set). Final range here is KK+, AJs+, AJo+.

Turn: Here if he wants to get any money in the pot to pay off his KK+ he should bet, but he could go for a c/r since you lead out last street, so that can't be taken out. Nor can any two high cards that want to see a cheap showdown to keep you honest. Same range: KK+, AJs+, AJo+.

River: With the check behind from you on the turn I would probably think you are done with the hand, or trying to milk out some more money, because your line tells me you have a low to mid pp. So maybe he is scared of a set and checking the river, (but since I see you checked behind you probably don't have a set here otherwise you would have valuebet).

Either way, I cannot narrow down his range (or yours for that matter). I will stay with KK+, AJs+, AJo+.

This is based of the assumption that the villain is tight and not overly aggressive. This is my default assumption when against a new player. But honestly without reads, it makes the exercise rather pointless, unless the point is to see where your default read is against new players.

2 overcards. AK/Q/J, KQ/J. This read doesn't change at all though the corse of the hand. I suppose he could have 77 or 66, but why show the aggression pre-flop if your not willing to test the waters post-flop

I guess the real question is why didn't he c-bet with that flop? Top pair being 8's, preflop play showing no higher than pocket 9's being held by hero and having 2 overcards not c-betting seems retarded in this instance. So if my villain is a moron (high probability at 10NL) then it's overcards. If he has any clue at all I would be thinking set/overpair at the flop. But the turn largely destroys that. Gotta be a twit to give a free card at that point with a made hand. The river just verifies that he is a moron with 2 overcards.

I dunno maybe I'm just tired

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Originally Posted by Dashi

But honestly without reads, it makes the exercise rather pointless

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definitely don't need a read to figure out what villain has

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definitely don't need a read to figure out what villain has

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If all you want to know is that he likely has nothing, in order to safely take down the pot at the river. Then yes you are correct.

If your actually interested in narrowing down his holdings as much as possible, then you can't possibly discount reads.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Dashi

But honestly without reads, it makes the exercise rather pointless

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definitely don't need a read to figure out what villain has

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No you don't need a read because he'll turn over his hand at showdown.

:roll:

If it's typical $10nl then AA 0r 72o

It looks like AK from a typically weak player. We can't discount the possibility he's slowplaying, though, since they do it too much and for too long. So JJ+ is also in his range here. I don't see a 10nl fish raising a low-mid pp from the bb pre-flop, ditto SCs.Axs is possible but his flop call would be baffling without say A4s. It seems unlikely.

The hands I can't quite figure out are 88-TT. I personally wouldn't play them remotely like this, but I've seen stranger things at the micro-limits.

Why are people putting overpairs in his range here? I mean... maybe really low ones but KK+? Really?

my question to martin, bion, or pel: you know he doesnt have much, you know he is looking a bit scared, what do you bet the river with and try and take this hand w/o a read that villain "cant fold whiffed AK" or "slowplays 3 streets?"

if you hold QJs, do you try and steal here? AQ? 66?

do you at least need to beat 99? or do you want any pair to fire at river?

or do you just get the cheap showdown, and note him up?

if you figure to be ahead, but arent really sure, do you fire or check it through? i tend to fire, and it gets me in trouble when only better hands call...thats why the question.

Id bet overcards and just check it down with a pair. The key is that alot of his range is Ax type stuff that beats our overcards but not our pairs. Also medium PPs are probably calling a bet after the weakness we have shown so far anyway so a bet with 66 doesnt really fold anything we beat and often gets called when we are behind (e.g. to 99).

If we have QJ we have no showdown value but he folds alot of his range to a bet so we bet. We bet however much we need to get him to fold overcards but we assume he will still call with good hands so we dont go crazy. $1.50 should do it.

(We also bet more on the flop :p)

edit: For the same reasons we probably check AK here because it beats all the A high hands anyway and pairs probably call us after this line.

66

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Originally Posted by Pelion

Id bet overcards and just check it down with a pair. The key is that alot of his range is Ax type stuff that beats our overcards but not our pairs. Also medium PPs are probably calling a bet after the weakness we have shown so far anyway so a bet with 66 doesnt really fold anything we beat and often gets called when we are behind (e.g. to 99).

If we have QJ we have no showdown value but he folds alot of his range to a bet so we bet. We bet however much we need to get him to fold overcards but we assume he will still call with good hands so we dont go crazy. $1.50 should do it.

(We also bet more on the flop :p)

edit: For the same reasons we probably check AK here because it beats all the A high hands anyway and pairs probably call us after this line.

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sorry to hijack the thread, but here is where i have a ton of issues. so as not to hijack it completely, i will start another thread.

pel, i'm stealing your quote, so i can ask another question.

This is dumb. Its basically impossible to narrow his range down to anything meaningful based on the mere fact that he raised preflop from the blinds after two limpers.

Here's the meaningful breakdown:
A) Might be a hand
B) Might not.

Obviously the rest of the action leads toward point B, where we figure villain was just trying to take down the preflop dead money.

Let's discuss what your flop bet size with your range is trying to accomplish

If you can discuss it that well, talk to 2p2 about writing a book. Thats an obscenely broad topic.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

66

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Am I right?

I thought a couple high cards as well, but just to be different, pocket dueces.

He is an idiot and raised preflop with his pocket pair, hoping to catch another 2 and make some money with a well hidden set.

It never came and he is at least aware enough to realize that you probably have at least a pair and he's beat.

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Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

I thought a couple high cards as well, but just to be different, pocket dueces.

He is an idiot and raised preflop with his pocket pair, hoping to catch another 2 and make some money with a well hidden set.

It never came and he is at least aware enough to realize that you probably have at least a pair and he's beat.

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Raising any pocket pair from any position is a well-respected strategy with several merits at these stakes. I think he has AK or AQ. Maybe 55 or 66.

Guys stop trying to put him on a hand. Put him on a range.

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Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

I thought a couple high cards as well, but just to be different, pocket dueces.

He is an idiot and raised preflop with his pocket pair, hoping to catch another 2 and make some money with a well hidden set.

It never came and he is at least aware enough to realize that you probably have at least a pair and he's beat.

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raising pocket pairs is a great way to getting them paid. if you open-limp with them, hit your set, and check minraise the flop...thats an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

Why are people putting overpairs in his range here? I mean... maybe really low ones but KK+? Really?

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Because I suck and for the reasons I gave. Pelion (or someone else that agrees my range sucks) could you please explain why my reasoning is faulty?

because overpairs are the nuts at 10NL and while he might slowplay them, hes very unlikely to slowplay them for 3 streets.

edit: Hand reading is just a comprehension test. Hes smacking you in the face with a big sign that says "I missed this flop". If you bet and he raises then hes lied to you at some point and you can decide whether he lied on the flop or he is lying now and you will also make a note for future hands that this guy is a liar. At the moment the story is coherent so believe it.

99.9% AKo

Question: If you are opp, what range would you put Hero on after the turn?

I ask this because a lot of my range has made a hand here that can beat an overpair. Which is why I said KK+ for his range on the river, because it seems like opp might be scared of being beat or is realllly nitty.

I know...

Both players accidentally joined an OmahaH/L game, and are still confused as to why they have four cards.

(Really, this has never happened to me :liar: )

Ax, and any two paint. (not including an 8, T, or 2pr)

Wow! BB got outta this one super-cheap knowing his KK was beat by hero's AA!

Seriously as a standard exercise I concur that this situation most often results in a showdown where BB has missed overs and Hero has a pair...

If I had to guess I'd agree with BB on AK/AQ and Hero on a non-setted pair like 55/66/99 and less frequently on Hero having paired an sc like 89s.

I didn't know I was supposed to guess what Hero had too....

Dammit... and I was feeling pretty good about my AK read and now I gotta go do it ALL over again.......

who cares whatever the BB has for a hand, the hero should have stole the pot


jack sawyer--> nice av

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

Raising any pocket pair from any position is a well-respected strategy with several merits at these stakes. I think he has AK or AQ. Maybe 55 or 66.

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Personally, I'd rather hope to see the flop as cheaply as possible and hope for the set, but then again I know that I'm too tight/passive so I guess this just confirms it. My problem is that I always pick the wrong spots to be aggressive, and when I try to make myself be more aggressive I pick the wrong spots and get burned. This is my main goal now...learn to get away from these tendencies.

Do you guys think that if he had 22 here that he'd bet again, just for the fact that he does have at least a pair, or would most players at this level assume they are beat there?

i feel that when you raise, maybe even 3bet in the right spots, with pp's, you have many more options to win a pot.

-hit your set with an A or K up and string them along
-cbet dry flop with an A or K
-check into a passive opponent for a possible free/scare card

its no longer "no set, no bet" in a raised pot, but its easier to get it in when a 2nd best thinks youre full of shit.

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

99.9% AKo

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ding ding ding :clap:

I had 55.

When villain check/calls the flop after a pfr like that he has missed overs like 99% of the time. I immediately put him on AK and checked the turn hoping to induce a river bet which I wouldn't have been able to call fast enough. I probably could've bet the river on the off chance that he would actually call, but he's folding there like 99% of the time, and I wanted to see if my read was right. Some of the answers were pretty interesting. Seriously guys...AA? KK? Villain's line is about the strangest line I can think of for such a hand.

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Originally Posted by Chopper

i feel that when you raise, maybe even 3bet in the right spots, with pp's, you have many more options to win a pot.

-hit your set with an A or K up and string them along
-cbet dry flop with an A or K
-check into a passive opponent for a possible free/scare card

its no longer "no set, no bet" in a raised pot, but its easier to get it in when a 2nd best thinks youre full of shit.

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ya i've gone back and forth a few times on the whole raising all pairs from all positions thing. one good thing i can see from it is if you are in position getting a free turn almost every time. at low stakes i think it is unnecessary though as far as "getting paid" goes. also, there will be a lot of times where you are just spewing left and right with your cbets while not hitting a set for like 14 times in a row.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

66

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Am I right?

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that gets my vote too.
Or 2 overcards but not AK

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Originally Posted by salsa4ever

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

66

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Am I right?

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that gets my vote too.
Or 2 overcards but not AK

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why not AK?

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

99.9% AKo

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ding ding ding :clap:

I had 55.

When villain check/calls the flop after a pfr like that he has missed overs like 99% of the time.

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Wow you're so wrong

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

99.9% AKo

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ding ding ding :clap:

I had 55.

When villain check/calls the flop after a pfr like that he has missed overs like 99% of the time.

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Wow you're so wrong

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alright well in my experience anyways...what else does this that fits the preflop action? small/medium pairs generally don't raise in the bb there and big pairs generally don't c/c there.

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Originally Posted by salsa4ever

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

66

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Am I right?

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that gets my vote too.
Or 2 overcards but not AK

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I just feel AK bets the flop.
But I suck at NLH so my opinion doesn't count.

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Originally Posted by salsa4ever

I just feel AK bets the flop.
But I suck at NLH so my opinion doesn't count.

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lol ok. while i agree that AK usually cbets here i think that the preflop action combined with the c/c line fits AK best.

This thread is meaningless without reads

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Originally Posted by Anosmic

This thread is meaningless

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Yea, there is just so little action and with zero reads on the BOTH players it becomes very difficult to even begin to break their ranges down.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

99.9% AKo

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ding ding ding :clap:

I had 55.

When villain check/calls the flop after a pfr like that he has missed overs like 99% of the time. I immediately put him on AK and checked the turn hoping to induce a river bet which I wouldn't have been able to call fast enough. I probably could've bet the river on the off chance that he would actually call, but he's folding there like 99% of the time, and I wanted to see if my read was right. Some of the answers were pretty interesting. Seriously guys...AA? KK? Villain's line is about the strangest line I can think of for such a hand.

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Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I figured AK.. if this was 100NL we would be more likely to put him on a mid PP than AK because AK c-bets most of the time.. right?

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Originally Posted by Ash256

I figured AK.. if this was 100NL we would be more likely to put him on a mid PP than AK because AK c-bets most of the time.. right?

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but does a mid pp make that pfr very often? i don't think it does.

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Originally Posted by Anosmic

This thread is meaningless without reads

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how do you figure? villain's line is so freaking transparent. a read is completely unnnecessary to figure his hand out. you can't always have a read. are 75% of the hh's in the hh forum meaningless since they are vs. unknowns?

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Anosmic

This thread is meaningless without reads

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how do you figure? villain's line is so freaking transparent. a read is completely unnnecessary to figure his hand out. you can't always have a read. are 75% of the hh's in the hh forum meaningless since they are vs. unknowns?

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lol NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

AT $10nl there are players who don't raise PF with AK, the one's who do certainly usually cbet.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Anosmic

This thread is meaningless without reads

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how do you figure? villain's line is so freaking transparent. a read is completely unnnecessary to figure his hand out. you can't always have a read. are 75% of the hh's in the hh forum meaningless since they are vs. unknowns?

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lol NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

AT $10nl there are players who don't raise PF with AK, the one's who do certainly usually cbet.

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i just think his pfr from the bb like that followed by the really weak c/c narrows down his hand tremendously. c/c with missed AK happens a lot too from what i've seen this time around. certainly not as much as cbetting but it happens a fair amount.

why the fuck is a 10nl hand possibly taking this long of a thread to talk about

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Anosmic

This thread is meaningless without reads

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how do you figure? villain's line is so freaking transparent. a read is completely unnnecessary to figure his hand out. you can't always have a read. are 75% of the hh's in the hh forum meaningless since they are vs. unknowns?

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lol NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

AT $10nl there are players who don't raise PF with AK, the one's who do certainly usually cbet.

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I see this alot, even at 200NL on fishy sites. Lots of fish never c-bet.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

why the fuck is a 10nl hand possibly taking this long of a thread to talk about

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because most of the people who answered have tried to put him on a single hand rather than a range when we have nowhere near enough information to do that

Or, because a lot of FTRers play at low stakes and this is a lot more important to them than either sucking or chopping off Lukie's/ISF's/Gabe's balls over some metametagame three-barrel bluff?

Oh, we do.

Big bet pf + chk, chk, chk = missed AK coming from your average weak-tight 10NL player.

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Originally Posted by biondino

Or, because a lot of FTRers play at low stakes and this is a lot more important to them than either sucking or chopping off Lukie's/ISF's/Gabe's balls over some metametagame three-barrel bluff?

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qft

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

Oh, we do.

Big bet pf + chk, chk, chk = missed AK coming from your average weak-tight 10NL player.

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Big bet pf? 4BB + 1 per limper is fairly standard for alot of players at alot of stakes. Why cant he do this with AQ? AJ? KQ?

His range is alot wider than AK here and there is no reason to think it cant be. Also, while he is less likely he plays a low PP this way there are alot of players who will raise a pair preflop and then not cbet a low board. In this particular case heros bet was so weak that 66 is going to peel a card off quite alot. You are making assumptions that you have no logical basis for making. Who said he was weak-tight??

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Originally Posted by Pelion

4BB + 1 per limper

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Exactly. It indicates broadways, suited or offsuit. Its standard, as you said.
This, combined with weak-tightness = no c-bet

If it was a big pp, then because they are weak-tight they'll bet the flop big

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

Oh, we do.

Big bet pf + chk, chk, chk = missed AK coming from your average weak-tight 10NL player.

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lol this is the kind of thinking that keeps ppl stuck in low-stakes games wondering why everyone else passes them by.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

Oh, we do.

Big bet pf + chk, chk, chk = missed AK coming from your average weak-tight 10NL player.

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lol this is the kind of thinking that keeps ppl stuck in low-stakes games wondering why everyone else passes them by.

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LOL

i'm playin' low stakes atm, i can't apply high stakes reasoning here
i can't be third/fourth level thinking while my opponent only does zero
i see these kind of hands several times daily, missed broadways
what else could he have? KK? QQ? he'd bet any pair

he's opened the last 7 pots, he can have a lot dude.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

he's opened the last 7 pots, he can have a lot dude.

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i didn't see that info anywhere. i probably skipped it. too lazy to read the whole thred.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

he's opened the last 7 pots, he can have a lot dude.

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did you just make that up?

nevermind, I meant he opened 3 of the last 7

no, wait, 2 of the last 35

no, shit, 15 of the last 90.

Fuck it, reads don't matter anyways.....

lol @ spenda :)

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

why the fuck is a 10nl hand possibly taking this long of a thread to talk about

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64 replys and counting...

Why does it matter?

People are obviously getting something out of it. Maybe we should stop discussing low stakes hands in the beginners forum?

Yes, lets discuss high stakes hands in the beginners forum. Now why didn't Sammy fold KK against Barry's AA all-in pf? And why didn't Barry want it to be run twice?

It was a 200K pot...

um, as long as it was 100bb eff. stack poker a lot of the same theories can apply.

To me, saying "no reads" just always meant you weren't paying attention.

Unless it was early at the table?

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

Yes, lets discuss high stakes hands in the beginners forum. Now why didn't Sammy fold KK against Barry's AA all-in pf? And why didn't Barry want it to be run twice?

It was a 200K pot...

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Cuz he's a fuckin fish and Barry is not.

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

64 replys and counting...

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wowzers I'll go ahead and make it 2 pages :D
All I have to say about the hand is that it should be really really obvious to most here that villain in the hand has missed overs like 99% of the time and that AK is the most likely of the overs. while a pp is possible it is waaaay less likely than missed overs.

Wow spenda, nice av!

I think I like golf now...

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

um, as long as it was 100bb eff. stack poker a lot of the same theories can apply.

To me, saying "no reads" just always meant you weren't paying attention.

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jesus christ nice avatar but that chick looks weird