Thoughts about turning "Pro"

Well I finally started playing with a bankroll that can take variance, and in my first 8 hour session at 10NL i pulled in 70 $. Thats about what I make in a day working at my dead end job after taxes(I'm 22), and its alot more enjoyable and frankly I think i'm better at it than my job. My question is, what does the average 10nl player make an hour playing? How about 25NL ? I'm seriously considering doing this full time, since i play poker like a madman anyway and I feel I can progressively make more and more money doing it.

I'm looking for some real stories and advice to turning "pro", or at least pulling in a couple hundred per week to support myself, as I have limited expenses beyond car payments and food. Thoughts and comments please? Also, could someone link me to that "Operation Bankroll" thingy so I can make one to track progress?

opertaions.talkingapes.com

to be honest, you're nowhere near where you need to be to "turn pro"

dont quit your day job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gordo426

Thoughts and comments please?

---

Take it from Jesus:

"Unequivocally, absolutely not. No way."

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/pro-tip...rguson&tip=104

If your job stinks that bad, you think you can make as much or more playing poker, and your bankroll can withstand some variance, I say why not. It doesn't sound like it would be that tough to get another job paying similar even if you didn't make it playing poker for a living. I think it would be a different story if you had a great paying/difficult to get job and lots of responsibilities, but if you are ever going to do it, I would think now would be the time.

Best of luck.

I am playing full time right now at $50NL and $100NL and it is the hardest thing you will ever do. It's not the poker playing, it's not the hands you need to get in everyday. It's the losing, the downswings, and dealing with actually withdrawing from your bank roll. Good thing I have savings, I have a wife that works and have a few other things going for me like rakeback and enough money behind to get the 3-4 monthly reloads to clear.. You need to understand, it's not the days you win, it's the days you lose. Get Poker Tracker, watch the sessions tab. It actually tells you earnings per hour. Play 100K hands and see what you are earning over 40 hrs, 80 hrs of play. Trust these guys when they say, not yet. We have all asked this question in the past.

if you dont make $100 per hour you dont earn enough to be a pro

You either need to be at 200nl+, or you need to be a grind machine or get some type of solid rakeback. If you are already playing a ton, then I would keep your job and move up when your BR allows. If you are good enough, or can improve enough to beat 100nl, then ask this question again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

if you don't make $100 per hour you don't earn enough to be a pro

---

I've heard this many times. I think it requires more explanation than that. Why is the $100 number so significant?

I will wager that being a low-limits pro - someone who supports themselves playing $200NL or under - is several orders of magnitude harder than it was say 2 years ago.

My advice - if you're a student and want a summer job, or if you're in between jobs, or possibly if you have only a part time job, then poker may help fill in the extra hours and pay the bills. All this presupposes you're a proven, winning playing with excellent discipline. Otherwise, keep it as a hobby, hopefully one that provides pocket money.

If you're unhappy in your job, then find a better job. Poker is the right job for a tiny, tiny fraction of people, and it ain't the right job for ANYONE who plays 10NL.

I made $8/hr 8-tabling 20NL back in the day.

It's positive variance man, this kinda stuff evens out after a while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

if you don't make $100 per hour you don't earn enough to be a pro

---

I've heard this many times. I think it requires more explanation than that. Why is the $100 number so significant?

---

I think any significance is imagined. If one makes $100/hr. at a full time job, that is over $200k/year. Even if you subtract out fringe benefits such as health insurance, etc., that is still about $180k/year. Discount that by some reasonable variance probability (since we are making up numbers, lets choose .8), that is a job that pays $144k/year.

It doesn't sound like the OP is making anywhere near that, so he doesn't need to make that much for playing poker full time to be a net financial benefit for him.

Me, I make $310k/year + benefits, so I would need to make substantially more than $100/hr at poker for it to be worthwhile (probably around $250/hr).

Point being, it all depends on one's particular circumstance as to how much one needs to make in order for it to be better than working a job.

I was thinking more along the lines of why does it need to be so much? I get that someone in your position isn't going to play for $50 /hr but why does someone with a part time $8/hr job or even $20/hr full time job need to make $100++ an hour playing poker? What circumstances are you looking at that requires that kind of earnings?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

if you don't make $100 per hour you don't earn enough to be a pro

---

I've heard this many times. I think it requires more explanation than that. Why is the $100 number so significant?

---

what Ilikeaces says goes in my book, so $100 is the magic number.

~100 is a good number bc you NEED to be making a lot of money for the bad aspects of poker to be worth it.

For example, im up like 80k in the last year at poker. However, from early february to april i went basically break even at the tables. I was able to pay my bills thanks to rakeback, but i was cut really close. Thankfully, i made a stackobills in january and was able to weather it out (had a 30 bi downswing, plus was in full time school and didn't get to play much, yada yada).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

I was thinking more along the lines of why does it need to be so much? I get that someone in your position isn't going to play for $50 /hr but why does someone with a part time $8/hr job or even $20/hr full time job need to make $100++ an hour playing poker? What circumstances are you looking at that requires that kind of earnings?

---

My point is it all depends on the opportunity cost of playing poker rather than doing something else.

Let's do it this way:

A potential pro makes $X/hr at his/her day job. They also get fringe benefits of $10,000/yr (maybe too much and maybe too little, but lets go with easy numbers). A typical work year is approximately 2000 hrs, so the fringe benefits add $5/hr. So, they make a total of $X+$5/hr. Now, using my variance number of .8 to account for the fact that the job is essentially riskless whereas poker isn't, we need to multiply the wage rate by 1/.8 or 1.25. So, what one would need to make at a job in order to break even by playing poker as a profession is 1.25*($X+$5). It is now trivial to solve for when this equals $100/hr. The solution is $75/hr at work.

So, if and only if your hourly rate is $75/hr will you need to make $100/hr at poker for it to be equal financially.

In the OP's case, he doesn't make anywhere near that, so he doesn't need to make $100/hr to be a "pro"). Rather, he needs to make $16.25/hr at poker to break even.

I remember when I started playing for a living I was making 64/hr in a $1/$2 game over the course of a month and a half... then about $15/hr over the next month. Variance is a bitch.

I think the main reason we see the $100/hr figure all the time is that it keeps people from doing what I did... I spent over a year of my life playing poker as a full time job and have nothing to show for it. At least you've got something to put on a resume, right? I lied to my current employer about what I did in that time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renton

~100 is a good number bc you NEED to be making a lot of money for the bad aspects of poker to be worth it.

For example, im up like 80k in the last year at poker. However, from early february to april i went basically break even at the tables. I was able to pay my bills thanks to rakeback, but i was cut really close. Thankfully, i made a stackobills in january and was able to weather it out (had a 30 bi downswing, plus was in full time school and didn't get to play much, yada yada).

---

See now this sounds to me like, "you need to be making $100/hr because there will be times when you make $5/hr. I don't think you need $100/hr long term to be making enough to live. I likeaces numbers are based on Ilikeaces life or the life he envisions as necassary. My X-full time job was $25/hr or approx $52K a year ($25 x 2080 hours). I have no need to make $25/hr under my current conditions. I live in Canada, so no taxes on poker earnings. I have free OHIP (Ontario's medicare), so no doctor bills, medical bills and my wifes health coverage will take care of prescriptions, dental and alternative therapies as well as prescription glasses if needed. So I figure my take home pay was $1300 semi-monthly, minus $300 semi-monthly for gas, reduced insurance and food ( coffee is not cheap) leaving $1K twice a month to break even short term. Now I know I have no pension, no bonuses or overtime, but I'm at home. I have time off when needed. I can work more than 40hrs at will and no boss. What's that worth. If I was living at home, going to school or only needed part time money to survive, why do I need $100/hr LONG TERM to play poker. Face it, nobody in their right mind is going to be 19 and play poker 8 hrs a day for the next 25 years, so what are we discussing here? OP needs to know that he needs to work not because he can't afford to live playing poker, but because working will bring in more money than poker can at this moment in time, in his life. Not to mention, playing at $10 NL means he isn't rolled more than $200, and he could double his roll by working 25/hrs but make maybe 4 or 5 buy ins in that time.

I will agree though that you need to have money behind for the downswings. If your roll cannot support your lifestyle and needs over a couple months downswing or breakeven, that could become a problem. If you only need $800 a month to live, you may still want at least $4K behind you for cushion. The problem then falls on you is nobody plays $25NL, $50NL or $100NL with a $4K cushion, so it'll still come down to how much you have? How much you need? and How much can you make?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renton

~100 is a good number bc you NEED to be making a lot of money for the bad aspects of poker to be worth it.

For example, im up like 80k in the last year at poker. However, from early february to april i went basically break even at the tables. I was able to pay my bills thanks to rakeback, but i was cut really close. Thankfully, i made a stackobills in january and was able to weather it out (had a 30 bi downswing, plus was in full time school and didn't get to play much, yada yada).

---

See now this sounds to me like, "you need to be making $100/hr because there will be times when you make $5/hr. I don't think you need $100/hr long term to be making enough to live. I likeaces numbers are based on Ilikeaces life or the life he envisions as necassary. My X-full time job was $25/hr or approx $52K a year ($25 x 2080 hours). I have no need to make $25/hr under my current conditions. I live in Canada, so no taxes on poker earnings. I have free OHIP (Ontario's medicare), so no doctor bills, medical bills and my wifes health coverage will take care of prescriptions, dental and alternative therapies as well as prescription glasses if needed. So I figure my take home pay was $1300 semi-monthly, minus $300 semi-monthly for gas, reduced insurance and food ( coffee is not cheap) leaving $1K twice a month to break even short term. Now I know I have no pension, no bonuses or overtime, but I'm at home. I have time off when needed. I can work more than 40hrs at will and no boss. What's that worth. If I was living at home, going to school or only needed part time money to survive, why do I need $100/hr LONG TERM to play poker. Face it, nobody in their right mind is going to be 19 and play poker 8 hrs a day for the next 25 years, so what are we discussing here? OP needs to know that he needs to work not because he can't afford to live playing poker, but because working will bring in more money than poker can at this moment in time, in his life. Not to mention, playing at $10 NL means he isn't rolled more than $200, and he could double his roll by working 25/hrs but make maybe 4 or 5 buy ins in that time.

---

no, i only need 2k a month to pay my bills. What I ALSO need is a 10-20k cushion in case God decides he wants to slap me in the face for a few months with his huge godcock.

are there cock jokes in every single long thread on FTR?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dev

are there cock jokes in every single long thread on FTR?

---

yeah, but not GODcock jokes

I quit my shitty $16/hr job in March and I'd say it's been about as difficult as expected.

I expected a lot of difficulty, many swings, many great days and bad. I will never regret leaving MDS because if I hadn't, I'd always wonder: what if?

Here's my advice: Play 100k hands or so, and only quit your job to play poker if you are making at least just as much money on average as you did as your previous job. I know what some people are thinking: "what about the bad days? You should make at least twice as much as your last job because of the variance." Well, no fucking shit, include the bad days, I said 'on average.'

A good indication of your average pay is only determined by a very large sample. So play a lot of hands.

When comparing wages, be sure to include benefits. I hate it when people mention 'what about not having benefits?!1??!!?!' OMG..... if I make 55k/year playing poker and made 50k + benefits/year shipping packages, it's the same fucking thing. I get so annoyed when people bring it up.

Expect huge upswings. I made 10k in June. More importanly, expect major downswings. I am breakeven since July. You have to be mentally prepared, and this is the hardest part about going pro. You have to be emotionally ready to take on the variance.

In summary,

1. play a lot of hands (100k+++)
2. compare wages
3. be prepared emotionally
4. go for it, or you'll always wonder what if, and why the hell am I still here?

Or just go to work at some shit ass job for the next 40 years and hope your pension and government benefits will cover your ass till your 95.

thanks for the constructive responses. The point was I am a 22 year old student with a crappy job and I was wondering about the income potentials of playing poker full time basically, and most of the people in this post replied accordingly and I thank you.

this sounds like me. i started playing pro when i was working some jobs i didnt like and finishing college about 2 years ago.
it's gone real well so far for me, but im planning to get into something else in the next few years that makes as much or more $ but involves less work on the computer.
also, poker is going to get a lot harder in the next few years.

anyway..GL, it isn't an easy thing to do..and remember to keep some options open.

If you want some more thoughts. I say give it a go, while you can... But here is how I suggest doing it (I'm thinking about having a go next year sometime...)

Save enough money to support yourself for a few months with zero income - if you can save $150/wk at the moment in the job you hate, this will only take about three months. (Play some poker on the side while you make this money)
Build your roll while you're working. Track your results. Use poker tracker and start a blog thread here. Update your blog once a week with how you're going (starting bankroll, current, bonuses cleared etc)
Make sure you're set up for bonus whoring and rakeback (seems like this makes up a significant portion of most pro's earnings..)
Study your game, and poker in general between now and starting the attempt at playing pro.
Be ready to fail, be stoked if you make it!
Good luck....

oh, as far as hourly rate goes, you should be able to figure out an average after you have 50-100k hands logged. It might be out, but at least it's some sort of indication..

I'm doing alright so far. Played 4 4.40 180 man SNGs, placed 1st , 4th, 31st, and dead last. Bankroll is up to 850 $, I am playing 25 NL or 20 +2 SnGs with a 4.40 thrown in when I am bored. Hoping to get rolled for 50 NL soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daven

Make sure you're set up for bonus whoring and rakeback (seems like this makes up a significant portion of most pro's earnings..)

---

this is huge imo. get to a level where if you break-even for the month your rb alone is a respectable amount of money for the month.

I don't want to sound like a bastard,

but you can't turn pro playing 10NL. Don't even think about this.

To turn proper pro, you need to be playing at least 1/2 with a 40BI roll, proper rakeback etc.
Put yourself a daily goal (say, +$50), a stop-loss limit (say, -3 BI), and you're ready.
To live well, I need about $1500/month.

This is my plan. I'll keep building that roll until I can play 5/10 FR live. Then, my income will be solely from poker.

Is it possible to make a living off of playing SNG's ??

Im guessing variance is less of a factor...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geanosssss

Is it possible to make a living off of playing SNG's ??

Im guessing variance is less of a factor...

---

sng variance can be pretty gnarly too

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geanosssss

Is it possible to make a living off of playing SNG's ??

Im guessing variance is less of a factor...

---

sng variance can be pretty gnarly too

---

True, but surely the swings in cash games are far greater

16-20 tabling the $6.50 18 mans on stars I made about $50 an hour over 30 hours. Variance can be horrid; it sucked when I lost FOURTY-ONE in a row.

Nice one with the sng's!
To sort out your signature, go to the ops-blog forum, open the sticky, copy and paste the example and change the numbers to match yours. Then we can all watch your progress!

I'm not quite sure what I'm doing wrong with the IMG posting, where is this sticky i can copy and paste? And thank you, I am very proud of my 180 man win, and I should have won the 4th place finish one but I made a huge huge misread at the final table.

[/img]

http://operations.talkingapes.com/images/158.png


you had a space between png and [/img]

paging Laelin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geanosssss

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geanosssss

Is it possible to make a living off of playing SNG's ??

Im guessing variance is less of a factor...

---

sng variance can be pretty gnarly too

---

True, but surely the swings in cash games are far greater

---

Surely the shitty spots that are constant in tournament poker mean that SnG variance is worse than cash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by acesfullokings

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geanosssss

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geanosssss

Is it possible to make a living off of playing SNG's ??

Im guessing variance is less of a factor...

---

sng variance can be pretty gnarly too

---

True, but surely the swings in cash games are far greater

---

Surely the shitty spots that are constant in tournament poker mean that SnG variance is worse than cash.

---

this is what i would guess too. 10 buy-in downswings are pretty common at 1-table sng's. the variance just gets worse and worse the bigger they get. eventually they are just like mtt's (like the 180 man ones).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deanglow

16-20 tabling the $6.50 18 mans on stars I made about $50 an hour over 30 hours.

---

Pure push/fold tactics?

What if someone approach going pro like this:

They managed to save up approx 6 to 10 months of their salary net, put it into a short term investment, earning some interest, while they built their bankroll playing ring that entire time.

Then when they finally reached that targetted saving time (6 to 10 months) they had shown to be a winning player according to their PT, so now they have 6 to 10 month "cushion" + their bankroll to go at it.

What do you guys think of this plan, and once they took the plunge they would keep their "cushion" invested in something liquid in case their bankroll took a hit. In essence, treat it like a business where they would remain VERY disciplined and constantly improving their game?

Reason, I am looking at it like this because I have as of late been giving this very notion a thought. I am in no shape or form "ready" to turn "pro" but I think if I could come up with a sensible plan, I would want to leave the cubicle life, because having time freed up to do other important things like visit my son in Wisconsin, or pursuing other business ideas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

if you dont make $100 per hour you dont earn enough to be a pro

---

if u make 50$ an hour its already enough to go pro.Hell, i would be happy if i make 30$, its still more then my job..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dislexsik

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

if you dont make $100 per hour you dont earn enough to be a pro

---

if u make 50$ an hour its already enough to go pro.Hell, i would be happy if i make 30$, its still more then my job..

---

NIce avatar def one of my fav movies of all time.

I went pro at $200 NL and regretted it. It was great at first, but when things slowed down I realized that all my winnings were going to bills. Meaning, I would be living hand to mouth for a very long time because I couldn't make enough money to pay bills and increase my bankroll at the same time on most months.

So think about it this way. How are you going to increase your bankroll at $10 NL or $25? It may pay the same or more than your real job, but do you want to spend the rest of your life making $60 a day?

Keep working to pay bills, keep increasing your bankroll to play bigger games. Get up to $400 or $600NL then go pro. Or if you're still living at your parents and have very few bills, then you can probably go pro at a lower level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shysti

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dislexsik

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

if you dont make $100 per hour you dont earn enough to be a pro

---

if u make 50$ an hour its already enough to go pro.Hell, i would be happy if i make 30$, its still more then my job..

---

NIce avatar def one of my fav movies of all time.

---

same here, David Lynch ftw. :wink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Checkways

I went pro at $200 NL and regretted it. It was great at first, but when things slowed down I realized that all my winnings were going to bills. Meaning, I would be living hand to mouth for a very long time because I couldn't make enough money to pay bills and increase my bankroll at the same time on most months.

So think about it this way. How are you going to increase your bankroll at $10 NL or $25? It may pay the same or more than your real job, but do you want to spend the rest of your life making $60 a day?

Keep working to pay bills, keep increasing your bankroll to play bigger games. Get up to $400 or $600NL then go pro. Or if you're still living at your parents and have very few bills, then you can probably go pro at a lower level.

---

Again though, had you done it the way I mentioned do you think you would have been living hand to mouth? I think a lot of folks who decide to turn pro fail to have other investments and a good cushion of money set aside for the downswings, and I am not just talking about your bankroll. I am talking about a purse set aside for liquid investments that will feed you when your bankroll is taking a hit at the tables.

I just think anyone who is serious about turning pro should have at least a year of their salary saved up, that will A.) be used for liquid investments, B.) feed them, pay rent when they are experiencing a downswing and C.) supplement their bankroll during said downswing.

HOwever long it takes you to save up a year of your salary, should be utillize to build your bankroll at the same time during that period.