Pocket Kings Pre-Flop

Maybe this is my newbie-ness shining through, but in my opinion pocket kings/aces are unfold-able pre-flop. Regardless of the action before or after you, raises all-ins whatever, you simply do not fold.

Now the only reason I ask this, is because I have sustained massive losses (massive meaning over $1000 recently by call-in's with AA and KK.) I look at it with the mindset that I WANT to get someone all-in pre-flop with those hands.

On different but related note, with those hands you want to be heads up against one person, but you don't want to have a multi-way pot, I have been betting 3.5x BB in most cases with those hands (as well as with other raising hands) but I am getting only the blinds in most cases. A. Should I be more willing to go into a mutli pot by calling, or small 2x-3x raises?

Don't much care for slow-playing preflop, too many times you get into a small pot, flop is trash and you lose to the BB holding J3, but show I change my attitude towards these hands and be more liberal with them?

Largely just venting frustration to having my monsters over-ran or getting no action. Been a rough week, but I do want to know if my problems have roots in my play.

yes, you are exactly correct. welcome aboard, btw.

you WANT to get it all in PRE-flop. and most times post flop when you have the initiative. your numbers will turn around.

and dont start slowplaying them because you are only taking blinds. AK, AQ, JJ, 55...will all call, generally.

the only question is: are you sufficiently raising other holdings, too? AK? JJ? if you only raise KK+ preflop, you will lose action. not that your arent raising the others, you just didnt mention it in your post.

keep your head down. it'll turn.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Right now I likely raising too loosely pre-flop. Mainly with Ax and KQ KJ in MP-LP. I have had great success with tournament play, but it's an entirely different mindset/skillset in rings games so I'm having trouble adjusting.

1600 hands my poker tracker stats are at 17/10/1.7 which from what I understand is on par with a general solid straight up poker style. I have been playing 200nl and have a loss record of $700 over those hands. When I started playing 200NL, I played an estimated 1000-1500 hands and won approximately $1000 that is not part of the Poker Tracker stats.

I realize that the hand numbers are too low for any solid conclusions is there any reason to believe that I'm not just in a small slump?

My biggest losses per hand is AKs at -$30 per hand followed by QQ with -$23 per hand, not terribly concerned about those, except I do plan on looking through the actual hands to see where/if I screwed up playing them.

Next up is AJo ATo which I KNOW I am overvaluing and working on getting them out of my ring game. In tournament play they work well for me in most cases, but again in tournament play people will call with worse hands MOST of the time. In ring games they don't and when I play post-flop like tournaments it's a recipe for disaster.

Those 2 hands I have played 14 and 15 times respectfully and lost $180 and $235 with them. Now I know I should generally not call with them, or if I do feel the need drop them with most post-flop aggression unless I hit 2 pair. Opening a pot from LP I feel is ok as a basic blind stealing hand, with a slightly higher possibility of dealing with post-flop aggression from BB/SB.

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I realize that the hand numbers are too low for any solid conclusions is there any reason to believe that I'm not just in a small slump?

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you've kind of answered your own question. sample too small.

AJ is especially easy to overvalue, imo. as is AK. i rarely 3bet AK anymore, but i play much lower than you (25NL). i would bet that you have to RR AK w/o a read up higher, as the 3betting is much lighter.

AJ is technically a limp from most earlier positions, but becomes an open-raise in late i believe. but i raise it from earlier than most, and again i play lower than you. i imagine i would get punished with AJ at 200NL.

dont put too much thought in things right now. log some more hands, and keep us posted with whether or not the results are changing for the better or the worse.

any other questions, as always, feel free to fire away.

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Originally Posted by Chopper

i rarely 3bet AK anymore

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why

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Chopper

i rarely 3bet AK anymore

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why

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1) i'm a nit
2) my reads arent great most times

...both works in progress

3) ive noticed that i feel the need to follow through with a cbet on the flop when i whiff. surely, i cant check oop to the original raiser. in a bigger pot, that scares a nit like me. i wont 2 barrel it in a 3bet pot (which i should), and i fold to the flop raise of my cbet (which maybe i shouldnt). all signs of weak-tight overplay, but whatchagonnado?

like i said, works in progress.

it just seems lower variance (what us nits like) is to call pf and string AJ and AQ along for the ride. and like a true nit (pray to the pokergods that the J or Q doesnt hit).

one more thing i just noticed... ive been focusing on position much more lately than i ever have. i could start 3betting AK only when in position, and just call oop. thats pretty standard, right? or do you ALWAYS 3bet AK w/o a player read?

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Originally Posted by Dashi

... I have sustained massive losses (massive meaning over $1000 recently...

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I have been playing 200nl

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If this feels like "massive" losses to you, are you sure that you are playing within your bankroll? -5BI can easily be just variance, especially over such a small sample. Post some hands here that you have questions with, and maybe we can help you figure out if there are some areas that you can improve! Specifically some of your AKs and QQ hands, since those are your biggest losers currently!

good point, critter.

i personally went on a 12BI swing at 25NL in 3 weeks. i gotta tell you, dashi, i was ready to jump off a bridge. it'll turn around, as long as you dont do more damage to yourself along the way, like i did.

just keep your head on straight, and you should be fine.

Ok so bumping my post count up to 10....sorry figure the spam posts is better then sifting through non-converted hands

And yet another one

Last one

Was in the process of posting the second hand when the first hand happened. On a side note, is there a reason why the output from the hand converter is showing a 3-way pot?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP3 ($216.65)
CO ($57.60)
Hero ($198)
SB ($37.10)
BB ($412.90)
UTG ($109)
UTG+1 ($40)
MP1 ($277.45)
MP2 ($381.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/kd.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ad.gif.
3 folds, MP3 calls $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds, MP3 calls $6.

Flop: ($19) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/8h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/7s.gif (3 players)
MP3 bets $19, Hero raises to $60, MP3 calls $41.

Turn: ($139) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3s.gif (3 players)

Villian then leads out with $84 on the turn. Reads were 9/3/1.5 with only 66 hands.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP3 ($219.25)
CO ($667.35)
Hero ($214.25)
SB ($250.65)
BB ($197)
UTG ($40)
UTG+1 ($78)
MP1 ($73.75)
MP2 ($502.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/kc.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ac.gif.
2 folds, MP2 calls $2, 1 fold, CO raises to $7, Hero raises to $28, 3 folds, CO raises to $87, Hero raises to $242.25 (All-In), CO calls $134.25.

Flop: ($447.50) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/5s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4d.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/td.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($447.50) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/7c.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($447.50) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/kh.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $468.50

Hand 1, fold the flop to a 9/3 player. He isn't playing many hands, basically what you call "set mining". When he leads out at you for full pot like that, you have to give him credit for having a big hand.

Hand 2 when you get 4-bet to $87, you have to ask yourself if you want to play for stacks. Reads on this player would be good, because the usual 4-betting ranges of FR players are very tight. When you're 4-bet it's time to decide either all-in or fold.

2 is fine
1 is a little more tricky, whats his cold calling range here pf, and when he leads into you is it a sign of weakness? When he calls your raise here this makes me think he could have a set or maybe a draw. If villain is on a draw here turn is a brick....but wait you only have A high and hes a nit fold. flop play is fine though.

hand 2 looked fine, if you like to get it in pf with AK. i play lower; therefore, i dont. i prefer to see a flop first.

hand 1...i wouldnt get pissy with a player who only plays 9% of hands. sure, he could be running cold over 66 hands, but he isnt playing much when he's on a heater, either. he's uber-tight. i play it like you pre-flop, to see if he RRes me, but i drop to his flop bet. out of him, its a sign of strength, imo. thats what i meant about "overplaying AK." not pre flop, but post flop.

Reads on the second one were 20/4/0.75

The first one my thinking on the flop was if he had hit a set he would have bet much lower, he was looking at buying the pot. Which is why I re-raised 3x.

While I understand there are morons out there, leading out with a psb when hitting a set just doesn't line up in my eyes. Unless the board showed an A or K in which case a psb would still likely produce a caller. What does fit the post-flop action is 2 pair, but hitting 2 pair on that board after calling the pre-flop raise doesn't fit, not with that read.

My gut says he tried to buy the pot, failed and then tried to cover it up by throwing $120 more at the problem. If I had a strong overpair, QQ+ then I would have likely pushed. Does my thinking add up? Am I over analyzing? Would holding QQ+ change the lay down on the turn?

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Originally Posted by Chopper

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

i rarely 3bet AK anymore

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why

---

1) i'm a nit
2) my reads arent great most times

...both works in progress

3) ive noticed that i feel the need to follow through with a cbet on the flop when i whiff. surely, i cant check oop to the original raiser. in a bigger pot, that scares a nit like me. i wont 2 barrel it in a 3bet pot (which i should), and i fold to the flop raise of my cbet (which maybe i shouldnt). all signs of weak-tight overplay, but whatchagonnado?

like i said, works in progress.

it just seems lower variance (what us nits like) is to call pf and string AJ and AQ along for the ride. and like a true nit (pray to the pokergods that the J or Q doesnt hit).

one more thing i just noticed... ive been focusing on position much more lately than i ever have. i could start 3betting AK only when in position, and just call oop. thats pretty standard, right? or do you ALWAYS 3bet AK w/o a player read?

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3betting AK is pretty standard regardless of position especially if the raiser is opening with a wide range of hands (like a button raise when it's folded around). You figure to have the best hand at the moment so you want to get money in while you have the best of it. If you have a read that someone only raises a really really small % of hands then you prob shouldn't 3bet them. As far as flop play goes...of course you should fold if your cbet is raised. A lot of people cbet as a rule after 3betting preflop. Not cbetting looks weak, but imo you shouldn't cbet if you don't think there is a good chance that your opponent will fold.

Also what hands do you 3bet preflop? If you only 3bet AA/KK then you will eventually get less action from aware opponents who have played with you before.

I think being afraid to 3bet AK preflop means the money means too much to you currently.

good point about money meaning too much. i can see how it looks that way, but not really...in that sense.

i 3bet AQ+, JJ+, and a little AXs, maybe the rare 89s-JTs. i do this against known aggressives, though. rocks and tighties i only nail them with the kings and aces...although i will with QQ if i think he may fold preflop.

the reasoning i kinda stopped with AK was that i was running up against big pairs all too often, or would raise the flop when i thought i was being cbet into. definitely overplaying, so i started only calling raises, and started turning bigger profits with AK.

maybe thats variance, but i just didnt like missing all those flops with what were now overcards.

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Originally Posted by Dashi

While I understand there are morons out there, leading out with a psb when hitting a set just doesn't line up in my eyes.

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then, make your standard flop bet 3/4, if psb is getting too much respect.

i dont see it that way, unless the board is superdry. i used to c/r the flop on the aggros i KNEW would bet if checked to, but i stopped that, and started leading out again because the c/r sends of mega signals.

if the board has any coordination at all, i fire with my set. too many people will call with draws and/or think i'm cbetting. i love it when i lead and they raise me.

only calling, or checking the flop produces small pots (look at me, i'm growing), and leads to undetectable gutshots, imo.

either way, its easier to lead out, and take your chances with a HUGE pot, instead of playing "trappy" and gaining a small one...or, God forbid, losing a stack.