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I think you mentioned in a thread recently that you think it is often correct to 3bet SC's preflop. Could you explain that? If my memory was wrong, when do you think are good times to 3-bet with SC's?
How do you adjust ur game at a table full of loose passive fish?
What are the main pillars/foundations of a good thought process?
Or, to put it another way, what are the main things you think about during a hand?
What's your regular higher stakes limit? What's your winrate at said limit? Why do I see your name showing up in some 200NL HHs lately.
Yes, knowing any of these won't improve my game but I'm always curious in the progress of peers as they move up.
i thought this is what everyone learned first?Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
it was supposed to be a joke now u ruined it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
i never know with you 2
I think I implied more along the lines of 'sometimes' rather than 'often'. In any case, it's highly subjective and IMO the best times to 3-bet them are when you can win a lot of small pots, NOT on the hope that you hit a miracle flop and destack another big hand. This is assuming typical online dynamics and stack sizes. Anyway the prototypical situation might be 3-betting a laggy late position opener when we ourselves have a good image. This is especially true if villain isn't particularly apt to protect his first raise (and perhaps correctly so). Something that isn't oft discussed in these spots is exactly HOW MUCH to raise and I have all sorts of ideas on how to manipulate the pot size, example if someone opens to 40 with 1k stacks we repop to 140 and fire 220 on the flop, for better or for worse we make it very easy for villain to shove over our flop bet. If we repop a 35 open to 120 with 1250 stacks and fire 160 on the flop, we can force them into a really, really tough spot particularly if they are oop.Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
just some thoughts to ponder, i don't want to go into that a whole lot more b/c this post is already fairly long and i anticipate this turning into a long thread.
hope this helps.
cliff notes: 3-bet sc's when people will open a large range but will only call/raise your 3-bet with a small range. we have a certain positive expectation going to the flop if called, and a (usually) profitable c-betting opportunity should be included in this.
we value bet our good hands very aggressively. The standard for a 'good hand' is lower than you would typically expect. big card hands gain value relative to drawing hands. we're good if they call and we fold if they raise. you can play looser than typically advertised particularly in late position, and you don't have to raise limpers every time you want to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
you always want to try to put people on ranges for any meaningful decision. sometimes situations will come up that i initially don't know what to do on, but then I think for a little bit, "what range of hands will he ACTUALLY play like this?" and the situation becomes a lot clearer. I think a lot of people are just too brainwashed into this 'standard type thinking' and can't really make good decisions because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash256
quite honestly though, I've put in so many hands that there are soooo many things that I'm cognizant of that I don't even actively think about. so say I open-pot to 3.5x with 57s in the CO, I'm not thinking about picking up the blinds, the profitable c-bet that is coming if I'm called, particularly if it's called by exactly one of the blinds, ability to win a big pot if we're playing reasonably deep, etc. But a less experienced player might have to think about these things, I'm not sure.
I recently took a pretty long break (played very seldom--and bad though) and came back full force a week or two ago. I got hit pretty hard for a while at NL1k, NL2k, and NL5k. I've played a little bit of 1/2 since my 'return' but mostly I've been playing 2/4 and 3/6 lately and I'm playing well/winning lots/games are easy, etc. I have the roll to play NL1k and NL2k no doubt but I don't want to deal with the stress/swings and stuff right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galapogos
Winrate is and always has been (with a one time exception to those damn 10/20 and 25/50 games) positive. woohoo! (I will be a winner in those games in the future assuming I keep playing).
please post in this thread, thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by gabe
1: do i have to play high stakes to ask a Question?
if not, how many bad beats or terrible downswings did you endure before you felt you could handle any/all tilt issues? you said you have quite a high threshold, so any rough guesstimate on how long or how many hands it took you to get to that point?
how do you beat good LAGS at NL200-400? does it increase ur variance alot ?
life graph?
1: of course not, feel free to ask away i'm only trying to help.Quote:
Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
I don't think i can handle all tilt issues. I don't think anybody can. That said I do think it's something that I'm pretty good at. When I first started playing I was a tilt monkey for sure so I've come a long way. I don't really get that steaming feeling anymore (where you get hot, heart starts racing, you know the feeling). I think it's just something my body's naturally gotten used to after playing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of hands. On the same token, I am also MUCH calmer in real life situations than I used to be, and I'm very confident poker has a lot to do with that. Whether it be a face to face or somebody does something retarded/dangerous on the road, I can pretty much always keep my cool.
One thing I have noticed, not sure if this qualifies as tilt or not, but sometimes I just get so nonchalant that I don't care anymore. Like complete disinterest when I'm playing and it generally happens when I'm losing. Usually this gets capped off with me getting stacked, I start laughing, then I quit.
You have to play back at them. You don't have to turn into a lagg yourself, just a ruthless Tagg. At least thats the mentality I try to have. Start by 3-betting pre more and raising their flop bet with reasonable frequency.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycrazy
Say you're on the button and a decent lagg opens his CO with about 30%+ of his hands. Assuming even remotely similar skill levels, you should be able to play a LOT of hands here profitably given you have position and you're going to have initiative a lot b/c wheeeeeeeee 3-betting in position against a loose opener is so much fun. The immediate goal is to win the pot preflop and on the flop quite often.
yes against a good lagg your variance is going to be high. gotta get used to it or table select better.
also there are a lot of adjustments you have to make vs good laggs but even a book wouldn't be enough to cover issues like this.
This is the best I could do, but it is surprisingly accurate (most of my hands have been lost for a variety of reasons).Quote:
Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6036/graphrz1.jpg
thx for answer. do i have more then 1 question?
how mnay times someone has to raise ur oop cbets before u get tired of it.... what u do ? move in with any draw, tp ? 4-bet ? or u stop cbeting him ? (guess not)
Such a great point too many seem to overlook.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Can you sum up what makes the difference between an average mid stakes grinder from a high stakes winner in one sentence? (or even a whole massive thread if you like :wink: !)
Thanks for doing this. My questions are very general, and likely unanswerable. But here they are anyways:
1. It looks to me that you better players sometimes flop felt naked draws (like J8hh on K76hhd or something). What conditions should be met in order to do this?
2. It seems that my preflop 100bb 4 bets are always pushes. I'll do this with AA and KK no doubt. What conditions need to be met in order to do this with weaker hands, say AK or QQ?
3. I have just switched from fullring to 6max. I think I played laggier at fr than most of you guys do at 6max, and it worked very well due to fr being a bunch of weak players. I've noticed 6max is a bit more aggressive. What adjustments should I make for 6max? I"m thinking more specifically about how hands change strength postflop.
This is actually something that interests me a lot because if I'm going to play in position (and I'm not 3-betting pre), I love to raise people's c-bets. I'm not reckless about it, but figure in many spots a good tagg might be opening 20-30% of his hands in mid-late position, so it just makes sense that he's not going to hit many extremely hard. What you'll notice is that you can often polarize their range quite a bit-- air folds, medium strength hands call and play "pot control" (even though you can get it all-in over the next 2 streets if you want to with ease), reasonable draws usually 3-bet, big hands either 3-bet or call with intention of check/shoving turn, etc. There are all sorts of ways we can exploit these tendancies but the immediate goals are to win the pot and get more action on sets and other big hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycrazy
Now back to your specific question on what we should be doing when other people are abusing position against us, it's honestly tough. First thing to do if you're a somewhat laggy opener is to tighten up a bit when this guy has position on us, particularly bn or co. We would do the same thing from late position against a very tough player in the BB. We can also take different lines instead of the standard bet x% pot that he's expecting-- we can c/f sometimes, c/c sometimes, c/r sometimes, etc. We do want maintain a good amount of aggression though because, well it's very important. 3-betting reasonable draws should be fairly standard, either by shoving or 3-betting and calling a shove, depending on how pot/stack sizes align. You will naturally have to take marginal-strong hands farther, e.g. TPGK. That might mean 3-betting on a drawy board with the intention of getting it in, or calling and playing a turn with a hand you otherwise wouldn't. We can 3-bet air sometimes too but I try not to make a habit of it b/c you're generally putting in over 1/3 your stack, but sometimes you'll run into a player that will raise flop bets so light but stack off with a MUCH narrower range that this is actually very +EV.
There shouldn't be any shame in switching tables or seats either. This is one of the great advantages of online play that many people overlook...
zomg this is a hard one but some things that stick out:Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
discipline/mental toughness, motivation, creativity-- problem solving, outside the box type thinking, intelligence, mathematical ability.
In order, I think. All of these contribute to improving at poker, and there's a LARGE difference in skill between a high stakes winner and an average mid stakes grinder.
1. it's all about balancing ranges. For example, if we're only felting sets, 2pair, maybe AA, and crazy megadraws like 89hh on this board, we become pretty easy to play against vs a thinking player who's trying to play optimally vs your range (which I'm going to assume that since we have J8hh, it's pretty wide). The best time to stack off with this hand is by shoving (or putting in the last meaningful raise) when you have some fold equity in a moderate sized pot and you're not losing a whole lot when you get called. Figure you might have 30-35% vs his calling range and at that point it's just a matter of putting him on a couple ranges and voila! I don't mind taking slightly the worst of it in these spots for metagame/image purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
2. First of all, it's probably not ideal to only 4-bet shove if you're going to 4-bet, but you're probably not given up a whole lot either since with 100bb stacks, once you 4-bet you are almost always committed to calling a shove anyway. I think 4-betting AK is generally awesome unless you're facing someone with a very tight 3-betting range (e.g. JJ+/AK where he's calling a shove with all of them), but you have to figure that you're cutting the number of combos of AA/KK in half since you have one of each, and you equity when called isn't that bad at all (AKo/AKs has about 40% vs QQ+/AK). The amount of pots you pick up vs even a slightly light 3-better more than makes up for this. Now QQ or worse pairs it's hard to say in the context of your game, because your hand has a lot of value by just calling and seeing a flop, but if you can shove and get called by worse pairs (99-JJ) all day like I sometimes can, it becomes a great play. Another thing to consider are the 30% hands... Axs, small pairs, suited connectors with emphasis on Axs. 30% against any reasonable calling range, sometimes it can be worth shoving them if there's enough dead money in the pot and they fold enough (break even point is typically around 2/3 of the time they have to fold given 100bb stacks and typical 3-bet sizes).
Lukie about answer to my question about 3-beting c-bets. Thx, very good post again. Yes i think too, 3-beting nit's c-bet lets say on particular boards is +ev.........i actually think the fold equity there is so big we can call their shove with anything part of the flop and not be much behind EV-wise......
true understanding of the game and not just some concepts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
as i watch these highstakes tables for fun, i'd think knowing your particular opponents well and exploting their particular tendencies.oh and, i'm quite sure, TALENT too.
what type of BR did you start off with, and how soon did you move up? Did you need to redeposit ever or are you a poker GOD and turned your BR into what it is now?
Who's posts, either on here or 2p2 or wherever, could you have not done without as you were developing your game?
good oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Galapogos
I was going to add, can you think of one thing, even one issue that really made you from being average into good/really good.
yeah, no doubt, I was trying to take more of a grass-roots approach to see how players actually become extremely talented-- motivation, creativity, intelligence, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycrazy
My first run at poker was probably 2 years ago or so where I cashed $5 on a freeroll at pacific poker and ran that up to 2k or so. I ended up losing most of it but I came back several months later and started grinding NL10/NL25 on stars with maybe a few hundred bucks as a deposit. Looking back I was pretty terrible, but the subsequent climb from NL10 to NL5k (and, ahem, back down to the NL400-NL600 midstakes games) has taught me just an incredible amount about the game. I don't consider myself a poker GOD because my winrate has never been uber-impressive, but I think a lot of that has to do with playing a lot of tough games on stars while playing 8+ tables. I think I've played upwards of a million hands over the last 2 years or so and I've made 6 figs, and as a 21 yr old guy that feels pretty dang good.Quote:
Originally Posted by medium pimpin
to add, I've never gone busto or had to redeposit, ever. I typically took a LOT of hands to move up each level though. I've logged a ton of hands at NL100 NL400 and NL1k.
Hmmm, quite honestly, mine. I feel that by far the most benefit I've ever gotten on forums has been by trying to help others out by posting some of my more integrate thought processes, even if they don't always turn out to be right. I wish I could say otherwise but for some reason I really don't think I got much help from reading other people's posts. There are a couple exceptions-- Fnord always seemed to get me thinking about the game at a deeper level when I was a HUGE nit back in the day, and there was a post on 2p2 a long time ago dealing with 2-barreling, 3-betting light pre, and playing with a bigger bankroll cushion. That was a great post, and it's unfortunate that it took me another year or so after I read it to really understand it. Also I've had some pretty deep convos dealing with poker with fellow FTRer's, bdawg and gabe the most. Those definitely helped me understand the game better. Props to them for always putting up with my shit, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galapogos
For the most part I think I just slowly but surely got better, but if there is one thing that happened (albeit, slowly) that really changed me was opening my game up. By that I just mean generally being more aggressive, raising more hands pre, 3-betting more pre, raising people's flop bets without fear, 2 barreling more, etc. As long as I avoid major spewage, I think I'm generally very tough to deal with, particularly if I have position on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
I swear, I was honestly going to end my message with "and please don't say yourself."Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
This is funny, because I have constantly needed to gear down my game from overly aggressive (and spewy) to more solid. By that I mean 3-betting less pre, trying to stop 3-barreling without a really good read and a good river card, not raising cbets with complete air etc... :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
some of the old posts between yourself and fnord were pretty awesome. The first time i moved from 1/2 to 2/4nl i remember going back to read the stack of sttuff you guys had posted in HH forum and strats. Gave me much more insight than anything ive ever really read on 2p2 and cardrunners has only ever taught me what i assumed to be correct about ranges 3betting etc in midstakes games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Im guessing however once i grind back to 3/6 and get in a massive amount of hands (i hope) that im going to have to go back to cardrunners and figure how to beat 5/10 and upwards.
I honestly just wish you'd post more hands sometimes!
Have you ever gotten into tournaments or SnG's?
If yes, what are some of the key factors to being a winning player in that, and why did you go back to ring?
If no, why haven't you/why don't you?
All other things being equal, how often are flopped trips/two pair good when someone shoves against you? Also, what is you method of playing these on the flop? For value or try to take down the pot asap?
Just for clarification, this appears to be my biggest leak at the moment, having been felted 4 times in the last few days by flopped trips (either with someone catching up or with someone ending up with a better kicker).
Lukie i'd like qualified answer i can relie on this if u have a while, please read my replies in there too if u get to it, they expand the question little further.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...c.php?p=548838
ty.
On how many tables do you usually play at once?
it wasn't meant to be a cocky or conceded response, I just feel that I've gotten a lot more benefit from trying to help other people out and explaining my thoughts than I've gotten from other posters. I'm sure other people feel much differently about themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galapogos
Like many other things in poker, a lot of it has to do with playing ideally in the context of your own game. To try to clarify, when I first started playing 'seriously', I was always super tight/nitty, so naturally opening up my game, raising more, firing multiple barrels more, whatever, helped me a lot. I've also played the vast majority of my hands on stars (a notoriously nitty site), so it's possible that it helps even more playing there.Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
k i'm mad tired and i'll be back in the a.m., just trying to give myself an extra post here
I get what you are saying. Going from tight style to a looser style is moving from one winning style to another, which sounds kinda smart. I just think it's funny that I became a winning player the opposite way, but I'm sure it has left some leaks in my game which I'm still trying to weed out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Are you still playing poker? And what stakes are you playing now?
If I have an A and an A and 3 people are all-in can I fold because I always get sucked out on?
Quoted for lols.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
I'm not and wasn't ever qualified to make this thread.
your avatar game has come such a long way
What do you mean by "unlimited?"
Only took ya 4 yrs to admit it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
ACCURATE!:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
1-The lady in your avatar is someone you hit?
2- How do you control money sliping out with the blinds when youre on more than 1000NL... I recently give a shot to 400NL and MAN I got really scare about the blinds over an hour.
This thread has ran its course