Raising Flop vs. Floating

I've been thinking about this subject lately and would like to know what others think about it. What other pros/cons are there to each option? What do you prefer and why?

Scenario
$100NL
Both players have 100BB stacks
Hero has position on random PFR villain who is neither a nit or a maniac
Villain raises to $4
Hero calls $4 with something like (22-66,88, 45s, or just complete trash like K3s)
It is HU to the flop of 7d 9s 9d
Pot is ~$10
Villain bets $8
Hero puts villain on missed overs or an overpair

Option 1 (Raise)
Hero raises to $24 and doesn't put anymore money in the pot unless he makes a great hand of course.

Option 2 (Float)
Hero calls $8 and intends to fold to a decent turn bet or bet ~$17 into the $26 pot on the turn if checked to. After the turn bet Hero puts no more money in without making his hand.

Pros/Cons of Option 1
Pros:
- Missed overs will most likely fold right away. They will not get a chance to pair up on the turn.
- Helps to hide flopped monsters if you don't normally slowplay them.
- Helps to build/maintain aggressive image if Hero also likes to raise flopped draws for a free card.

Cons:
- Costs $16 more than Option 2 when Villain has made a hand.

Pros/Cons of Option 2
Pros:
- Costs $16 less than Option 1 when Villain has made a hand.
- Helps to hide flopped monsters if you normally slowplay them.

Cons:
- Gives overs a chance to pair up. Villain will most likely bet the turn after pairing up forcing Hero to fold.

This is a really general topic, but assuming full stacks and an unexceptionally tight/loose opponent...


Raising with K-Qo on a 7c-7d-2h flop is better than doing so with 5-5, for example. This is because when you raise the flop you are essentially forcing villain to continue only if he has a pair/set(a made hand). If he has a pair - 8-8, for example - and calls, you are drawing thin with 5-5 but have 6 outs with K-Q. You will usually get checked to, and get to look at the turn and river for free. If OOP you could c/r K-Qo and c/c 5-5. Obviously turn play depends on the turn card/opponents actions, but playing enough and studying after sessions will improve your ability to make +EV decisions on later streets.

This idea applies to other flop textures, but the general concept is that with weak made hands it makes more sense to avoid putting money into the put before you know more information about your opponents hand/see another card. However if you have a drawing hand on a board where weak made hands will be pressured to fold, raising is often a good option (even better IP!). These ideas will vary in importance in your decision making as you gain more information about your opponents playing style.

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Raising with K-Qo on a 7c-7d-2h flop is better than doing so with 5-5, for example. This is because when you raise the flop you are essentially forcing villain to continue only if he has a pair/set(a made hand).

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Raising with any hand here does the same thing. Overcards don't accomplish this better than a small pair.

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

...the general concept is that with weak made hands it makes more sense to avoid putting money into the put before you know more information about your opponents hand/see another card. However if you have a drawing hand on a board where weak made hands will be pressured to fold, raising is often a good option.

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Raising in spots like my example above always pressures weak hands to fold. Your hand does not change your fold equity.

If you trust your read I like the raise here. To me though $24 maybe too small. It leaves it just $12 more to him after putting in $12. That price may lead him into calling with something like sixes. I say we force him to fold anything other then a made hand with a raise to $30-$35. Although we do risk a bit more I think were going to get more hands that villian has here out of there.

Also it really depends on what we have. If we have a PP I like the raise a lot. If we have two overs I like the float because we still have a chance to hit a pair. If we have some possible backdoor draws I also like the float because say we do make a draw then we can try to make a play at the pot on the turn.

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Originally Posted by Big-EZ

If you trust your read I like the raise here. To me though $24 maybe too small. It leaves it just $12 more to him after putting in $12. That price may lead him into calling with something like sixes. I say we force him to fold anything other then a made hand with a raise to $30-$35. Although we do risk a bit more I think were going to get more hands that villian has here out of there.

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Thanks for the reply. It costs villain $16 after our raise. $24-$8 = $16. In my opinion most average players won't be calling the flop raise with small pair type hands. I think raising $30-$35 starts to get a bit steep as we are then getting like 35%-40% of our stack in on the flop.

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Originally Posted by Big-EZ

If we have two overs I like the float because we still have a chance to hit a pair.

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If you raise with overs and get called there's usually a good chance that you will get to see a free river.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Raising with K-Qo on a 7c-7d-2h flop is better than doing so with 5-5, for example. This is because when you raise the flop you are essentially forcing villain to continue only if he has a pair/set(a made hand).

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Raising with any hand here does the same thing. Overcards don't accomplish this better than a small pair.

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

...the general concept is that with weak made hands it makes more sense to avoid putting money into the put before you know more information about your opponents hand/see another card. However if you have a drawing hand on a board where weak made hands will be pressured to fold, raising is often a good option.

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Raising in spots like my example above always pressures weak hands to fold. Your hand does not change your fold equity.

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Agreed, F.E. doesn't depend on what cards i am holding. But how is your equity against their calling ranges in both of my examples?

Take into cosideration that raising costs a lot more then calling, therefor it should work a lot more to be (more) +EV too. Calling flop AND turn usually costs about the same as raising flop, so you shouldn't be very afraid of second barrels.

I had a discussion some time back in another thread about raising c-bets on A high flops with small/med PP's. I was advocating raising, the other guy said calling. In the end I asked Sauce in a pm about it. Your question is more or less the same situation.

In short, the outcome was that calling should be the default play and raising is basically a bluff, which should only be done when;

1. calling is -EV (villain 2nd barrels a lot and big)
2. calling is +EV, but raising is more +EV (villain is folding better hands then ours)

Against a standard opponent, none of the above two points are true, so calling is the better play.

There are two plays:
1) Raise. The reasoning behind this decision is simple. You figure that there's a good probability that villain has overs (missed paint) and you can take the pot away from him by showing strength. You price him out of his overcard draw immediately, or else receive the bad news.

2) Call, with the intention of stealing the pot if checked to. This play is the same as the first, with an imporant distinction. Calling gives you information at the cost of a potentially harmful free card. To second barrel on the turn with missed overs (after a call) is risker than c-betting a flop. It takes balls. Thus, a villain wih missed overs is checking the turn frequently. If he checks, you can probably easily take the pot away (now confident that villain has dogshit). If villain fires, you know you're beat. The only difference is that your opponent might catch a needed ace / paint card on the turn.

Each move is justifiable, and depends on the opponent. Like the above poster stated, if the villain is fearless wih marginal hands (and will continue to bet a small pair / ace high), then calling the flop sucks. Whereas a flop raise might've scared him off, your call means nothing to him and a turn bet will put you in a tough spot. Against the more common (passive) opponent, calling is much better. Getting his small pair / ace high (marginal hands) called will frighten him and he'll check the turn waiting to give the pot away.

As far as the last point made, that raising may be greater +EV in getting better hands t fold, I disagree. Both plays are trying to get better hands to fold. The calling play is merely trying to bide time (and get more info) before pulling the trigger. Unfortunately the next card might screw us. Against a weaker player I call; calling can catch air just as well (the overs are missing the turn often enough anyway), without the downside of losing a few bets more to an overpair / unlikely trips.

Against a no-BS "i'm betting the turn b/c you weakly called me" player I'll let him know "i have it" by making it 3-4x to go on the flop.

I have a counter question - what can you do about getting raised on the flop by very agreesive player - what if someone continualy raise ur flop c-bets when u are oop -- do you move on him ? check raise him when u have it ? how often ?

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Originally Posted by crazycrazy

I have a counter question - what can you do about getting raised on the flop by very agreesive player - what if someone continualy raise ur flop c-bets when u are oop -- do you move on him ? check raise him when u have it ? how often ?

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3-bet as (semi)bluff.

Bet/call flop , check/call or check/raise turn with your good hands.

In general, tighting up if someone gives you a hard time OOP works well.

The thing I'm wondering about is this: I think most people around here advocate playing flopped 2-pairs/sets/straights fast. I'm not really sure how many like to raise their draws for a free card. If you are only raising the flop when you make a real hand and only calling the flop when you are drawing or floating then that is obviously a problem right?

problem?

Against solid players, yes.

Against a table of donks, no. My usual table still surprises me with players who don't think beyond the two cards in front of them.

If you are fast playing ALL of your good hands, it makes perfect sense that knowledgable, observant players will bust your balls every time you slow it down. Those playere are less common (highly stakes dependent I guess).

Kind of like the open-limp thread. If you're not getting punished then who cares? As you move up though, you need to stop open-limping (spewing), even with small pp (raise it up to get more action w/ set). Same goes with raising made hands purely, and floating draws or weak hands. That's as ABC as it gets and works at low stakes amazingly but high stakes I would assume not (I wouldn't know, what I've heard).

bigslikk: what stakes u play?

I've found that at low stakes floating flops is very proffitable, as a lot of the low-stakes donks tend to min-bet with air or with a very small peice of the flop. They may make another min-bet on the turn, although 80% of the time a raise will make them fold.
Note that I play sit-n-go's not cash games. And that this topic is very situational and the question very general.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Raising with K-Qo on a 7c-7d-2h flop is better than doing so with 5-5, for example. This is because when you raise the flop you are essentially forcing villain to continue only if he has a pair/set(a made hand).

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Raising with any hand here does the same thing. Overcards don't accomplish this better than a small pair.

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I think your missing the point here...

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Originally Posted by Geanosssss

I've found that at low stakes floating flops is very proffitable, as a lot of the low-stakes donks tend to min-bet with air or with a very small peice of the flop. They may make another min-bet on the turn, although 80% of the time a raise will make them fold.
Note that I play sit-n-go's not cash games. And that this topic is very situational and the question very general.

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This topic is about cash games only.

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Originally Posted by Geanosssss

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Raising with K-Qo on a 7c-7d-2h flop is better than doing so with 5-5, for example. This is because when you raise the flop you are essentially forcing villain to continue only if he has a pair/set(a made hand).

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Raising with any hand here does the same thing. Overcards don't accomplish this better than a small pair.

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I think your missing the point here...

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I don't think so...

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Geanosssss

I've found that at low stakes floating flops is very proffitable, as a lot of the low-stakes donks tend to min-bet with air or with a very small peice of the flop. They may make another min-bet on the turn, although 80% of the time a raise will make them fold.
Note that I play sit-n-go's not cash games. And that this topic is very situational and the question very general.

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This topic is about cash games only.

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Originally Posted by Geanosssss

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Raising with K-Qo on a 7c-7d-2h flop is better than doing so with 5-5, for example. This is because when you raise the flop you are essentially forcing villain to continue only if he has a pair/set(a made hand).

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Raising with any hand here does the same thing. Overcards don't accomplish this better than a small pair.

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I think your missing the point here...

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I don't think so...

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I haven't done a great job explaining my point. Here it is again;

when you raise with 5-5 on a 7-7-2 flop, you are basically turning your hand into a bluff. This is because when you get called you are almost never ahead, and way behind any hand that is ahead of you (~8%). However if you raise with K-Q and get called, you are almost always behind but have 6 outs and 2 streets to pick up a winning hand (~25%).

So, with a hand like 5-5, which is way behind a standard villain's calling range, floating is better since you have much better equity against his opening range. Plus if villain checks the turn, you can bet at the pot and win a high % of the time. If villain bets again it is an easy fold without reads. With K-Q you have much worse equity against his opening range and so, while folding is a viable option, raising sometimes is good too since you aren't as far behind his calling range.

Still poorly worded, but one way to consider this is that since 5-5 has some showdown value you don't need to raise the flop (it is essentially a bluff). Villain will almost always check the turn with overcards, and then acquiring the pot becomes more profitable since you win a higher % of the time when you raise the flop. Having the worst hand also becomes cheaper since villain will usually value bet the turn with a strong hand (7-x, J-J+). Floating overcards is not as good as raising, since you have almost no showdown value with say a bare ace, but raising isn't terrible since you will get a fold a good % of the time and you aren't WB villain's calling range.

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Still poorly worded, but one way to consider this is that since 5-5 has some showdown value you don't need to raise the flop (it is essentially a bluff). Villain will almost always check the turn with overcards, and then acquiring the pot becomes more profitable since you win a higher % of the time when you raise the flop. Having the worst hand also becomes cheaper since villain will usually value bet the turn with a strong hand (7-x, J-J+). Floating overcards is not as good as raising, since you have almost no showdown value with say a bare ace, but raising isn't terrible since you will get a fold a good % of the time and you aren't WB villain's calling range.

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Ok I see what you mean, and I can agree with that. One question though is what other hands do you call and bet the turn with, and what other hands do you raise the flop with? You just need to make sure you aren't only floating with small pairs and not only raising with strong made hands or hands with 6+ outs.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

The thing I'm wondering about is this: I think most people around here advocate playing flopped 2-pairs/sets/straights fast. I'm not really sure how many like to raise their draws for a free card. If you are only raising the flop when you make a real hand and only calling the flop when you are drawing or floating then that is obviously a problem right?

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Then it obviously becomes optimal to mix up your play. Raising vs. calling draws and playing flopped 2pair/sets/straights comes down to the villain, table dynamics and image.

as for your original example: I find myself raising the flop alot lately w/ somewhat marginal hands, and i think its helping my short term image durring sessions. In a similar type hand as you posted, i'll sometimes raise this flop with hands like 67s or 78s against villains with high c-bet%. Obv. im not doing this every time, and only vs the right opp, but i think its a good play to mix up when you flop monsters as well as monster draws.

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Geanosssss

I've found that at low stakes floating flops is very proffitable, as a lot of the low-stakes donks tend to min-bet with air or with a very small peice of the flop. They may make another min-bet on the turn, although 80% of the time a raise will make them fold.
Note that I play sit-n-go's not cash games. And that this topic is very situational and the question very general.

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This topic is about cash games only.

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Originally Posted by Geanosssss

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Raising with K-Qo on a 7c-7d-2h flop is better than doing so with 5-5, for example. This is because when you raise the flop you are essentially forcing villain to continue only if he has a pair/set(a made hand).

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Raising with any hand here does the same thing. Overcards don't accomplish this better than a small pair.

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I think your missing the point here...

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I don't think so...

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I haven't done a great job explaining my point. Here it is again;

when you raise with 5-5 on a 7-7-2 flop, you are basically turning your hand into a bluff. This is because when you get called you are almost never ahead, and way behind any hand that is ahead of you (~8%). However if you raise with K-Q and get called, you are almost always behind but have 6 outs and 2 streets to pick up a winning hand (~25%).

So, with a hand like 5-5, which is way behind a standard villain's calling range, floating is better since you have much better equity against his opening range. Plus if villain checks the turn, you can bet at the pot and win a high % of the time. If villain bets again it is an easy fold without reads. With K-Q you have much worse equity against his opening range and so, while folding is a viable option, raising sometimes is good too since you aren't as far behind his calling range.

Still poorly worded, but one way to consider this is that since 5-5 has some showdown value you don't need to raise the flop (it is essentially a bluff). Villain will almost always check the turn with overcards, and then acquiring the pot becomes more profitable since you win a higher % of the time when you raise the flop. Having the worst hand also becomes cheaper since villain will usually value bet the turn with a strong hand (7-x, J-J+). Floating overcards is not as good as raising, since you have almost no showdown value with say a bare ace, but raising isn't terrible since you will get a fold a good % of the time and you aren't WB villain's calling range.

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I completely agree.

imo two other interesting situations are;
1. PFR checks to you on the flop, hero......checks behind?
2. PFR bets flop, hero calls. Villain checks turn (fairly blank board)...hero checks behind and calls any reasonably river bet.

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Originally Posted by minSim

imo two other interesting situations are;
1. PFR checks to you on the flop, hero......checks behind?
2. PFR bets flop, hero calls. Villain checks turn (fairly blank board)...hero checks behind and calls any reasonably river bet.

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1. I would not check behind on the flop with either missed overs nor with a weak made hand. I want to win the pot on the flop if i am checked to in a HU pot, so i will bet. If villain develops a tendency to float OOP we start double barrelling with our missed overcards, and if villain develops a tendency to c/r we call with our small pairs. We would sometimes call down to the river with our small pairs, and sometimes call and raise turn with our missed overcards.


2. This is an interesting idea, but this is why i disagree;

1). Since i am floating the flop with weak made hands, i will sometimes float a very strong hand (when the board is dry enough). This is so villain doesn't constantly double barrel the turn every time we float.

2). We want to bet the turn with our weak made hands so we don't give 2 free cards to villain's flop float, and when we have a real made hand we want to get bets in on two streets.

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

1). Since i am floating the flop with weak made hands, i will sometimes float a very strong hand (when the board is dry enough). This is so villain doesn't constantly double barrel the turn every time we float.

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I think if I knew this I would still constantly double barrel you since monsters are normally few and far between.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

1). Since i am floating the flop with weak made hands, i will sometimes float a very strong hand (when the board is dry enough). This is so villain doesn't constantly double barrel the turn every time we float.

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I think if I knew this I would still constantly double barrel you since monsters are normally few and far between.

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Then it is profitable for me to call down 3streets against you with a weak made hand, since you are frequently double barrelling with air.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Raising with K-Qo on a 7c-7d-2h flop is better than doing so with 5-5, for example. This is because when you raise the flop you are essentially forcing villain to continue only if he has a pair/set(a made hand).

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Raising with any hand here does the same thing. Overcards don't accomplish this better than a small pair.

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I disagree. Great thread though...

You are not accomplishing the same thing.Sure, when you raise with either 55 or KQ against either an overpair or AK, you are putting villain to a decision which may lead to a mistake, but raising here with KQ leads to more mistakes. For example: villain only calls with JJ. Outs baby!

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Then it is profitable for me to call down 3streets against you with a weak made hand, since you are frequently double barrelling with air.

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Easier said than done :D

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Originally Posted by BankItDrew

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Raising with K-Qo on a 7c-7d-2h flop is better than doing so with 5-5, for example. This is because when you raise the flop you are essentially forcing villain to continue only if he has a pair/set(a made hand).

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Raising with any hand here does the same thing. Overcards don't accomplish this better than a small pair.

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I disagree. Great thread though...

You are not accomplishing the same thing.Sure, when you raise with either 55 or KQ against either an overpair or AK, you are putting villain to a decision which may lead to a mistake, but raising here with KQ leads to more mistakes. For example: villain only calls with JJ. Outs baby!

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That is exactly what I was saying. How do we disagree?

If your villains have a memory AND will put you on hand, then you should be raising most draws and all made hands opp. As soon as you show down a missed draw that you raised on the flop, you will get a ton of action when you hit.

If your villains a passive donk and deosn't know the last hand HE had, then you should only be raising your made hands on the flop, and looking to get free cards with your draws, as he is most likely to think 'he called so he must be trapping me' and will check a lot of turns. It is then up to you based on his frequency to fold the turn as to whether or not you should auto bet the turn if checked to.

If your villain is an aggro monkey, then you should be avoiding playing any weaker draws, and be ready to house all your made hands AND any big draw on either the flop or turn. This is dependent on the actually villain and his double barrel frequency. It will become very hard to play flush and str8 draws against him, because he will be pricing you out on these 8 and 9 out draws all day, especially if he bets heavy. On the other hand as soon as you get a 12+ out draw and raise you should be ready to felt it.

You also might want to add "Folds to flop raise" to your HUD for a few sessions. This will give you a better idea as to when and who you should be flop raising. As far as the genreal floating goes, you should be more willing to float a hand that has some showdown value with the intention of taking the pot away when you see ANY scare card. Also remember that if your villain can't put you on hand then a scare card will amost never hit. If your hand has little to no showdown value, but may improve and have showdown value, then you should be more inclined to raise if you want to continue with the hand. I hope this helps.

raising this flop looks far more defensive than aggressive.
As a rule i dont dump my AA on this board versus a dcent player a lot, i probably would against a fish.
I think this is actually a bad flop to float because a good player double barrels paired flops a lot on the turn simply because a strong hand declares itself quickly and a mediocre hand like 55 on this board hatyes the turn pressure and is probably making a mistake calling anyway (opp could easily barrel a medium pp on this board on turn too)
I think raising the flop needs to balanced as a float and draw/made hand but i tend to call much more on the flop now because too many opps tip the strength of their hand on the flop with a c-bet size. Not many always hit the same amount

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

raising this flop looks far more defensive than aggressive.
As a rule i dont dump my AA on this board versus a dcent player a lot, i probably would against a fish.
I think this is actually a bad flop to float because a good player double barrels paired flops a lot on the turn simply because a strong hand declares itself quickly and a mediocre hand like 55 on this board hatyes the turn pressure and is probably making a mistake calling anyway (opp could easily barrel a medium pp on this board on turn too)

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What do you think of non-paired flops like 2 7 9?

I disagree with you when you say there is no difference.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

raising this flop looks far more defensive than aggressive.
As a rule i dont dump my AA on this board versus a dcent player a lot, i probably would against a fish.
I think this is actually a bad flop to float because a good player double barrels paired flops a lot on the turn simply because a strong hand declares itself quickly and a mediocre hand like 55 on this board hatyes the turn pressure and is probably making a mistake calling anyway (opp could easily barrel a medium pp on this board on turn too)

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What do you think of non-paired flops like 2 7 9?

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i try to think like this.
If i raise, i c-bet any flop with two paint cards. If i have a backdraw high card draw i c-bet and if i like my hand i cbet.
Its interesting to note when opps will look up a standard c-bet however. If most of em are playing JTo junk to our raise then c-betting J9x is useless.
C-bettin one colour flops with no backdraw draw is spew too.
So if opp knows we are playing 98s on the button when he opens then raising on 97x is probably good.
As said however, with position i call much more when the flop is blank and encourage opps to tip their hand. At 100nl their are few double barrel players, so if they check you bet and take down the pot 60-75% the time, get called down the rest and c/r'ed only by the regs.
Raising flops that are draw heavy is much better, so 972 with a fd is a nice flop to raise becasue a turn bet puts opp to lots of decisions on a messy board, whether or not your hand is bets or has even got there yet.