adaptations when moving from FR to 6max?

i am currently playing FR NL25 and intend to move to 6max.
reasons:
- preparing to move up to NL50 (all 6max tables at party)
- maximizing winnings through higher rate of hands/hour at 6max
now, as the title of this post suggests, i am not so sure how i should be adapting my play when playing 6max.

from what i hear VPIP, PFR and aggression should be upped. at FR i currently run at about 14 / 6 / 2 respectively.
also i hear you should be stealing and defending blinds more.
seems all logical to me though rather vague.
i am really looking for some more specific recommendations by experienced tag players.
- what values for VPIP, PFR and aggression should i be aiming at?
- what starting hands do you play in what positions that you DONT play at FR?
- what to raise or reraise preflop that i WOULDNT be raising in FR?
- do your bet sizes differ when raising or calling preflop at 6max as compared to FR? if so, in what way do they differ?
- when to steal blinds or defend blinds? do you like to reraise when defending or just call? how high a reraise if any should i be making? do you 3bet when defending or stealing blinds?

any help would be much appreciated
cheers

I played 25NL 6max for a long time and ran about 30/10 for 12ptBB/100.

I play AT and AJ in six max and as I recall I didn't play 'em much in FR.

You should be three-betting a lot of pairs against loose ranges. Also AJ+.

Bet size doesn't differ.

I don't defend blinds much. I like to reraise when defending, but that's usually because I just defend with pretty big hands. I like a 3-4x reraise.

I don't think a 3-bet could be considered a blind steal, but rather a squeeze play. I don't think it's very effective at 25NL in general. At 50NL I like it.

At 25NL I don't think you should worry a lot about defending blinds, but it's pretty dern profitable to steal 'em and fire a flop barrel. 2nd barrel is rarely a good idea with air.

Anyway, I think LPA gets the money at 25NL 6max. Try to see cheap flops and then play big pots with your big hands.

thx a lot for your reply! just the kind of detailed information i had been looking for...
got some questions though concerning your advice on blind stealing:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sejje

it's pretty dern profitable to steal 'em and fire a flop barrel.

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how much you bet when blind stealing?
do you call reraises, then 2nd barrel?
how big a 2nd barrel?
how often do you steal?
against what kind of ranges to steal?
out of which positions do you attempt to steal?
do you use different bet sizes for different positions?

cheers

i'm jumping in here for a couple reasons. 1- i would like to see the responses. 2- i think you should open up at fr from what you showed. 14/6 gets no action, imo.

however, its becoming a common misconception that you "should" open up a lot when switching because of the blinds. that is true in theory, and the real pros (and authors) will defend that general strategy to the death.

but, you only need to play tighter than the table to be profitable...all other things being equal (which they arent always, but i digress).

therefore, dont open up for the sake of opening up. if you are taking medium sized pots ($4-$5 avg at 25NL) with simply better cards (kickers, higher 2 pairs, overflushes, etc), then you are going to do well enough to not worry about the blinds.

there is still enough stupidity in the lower stakes to lower your priority on blinds (stealing and defending). playing abc poker should still do the job.

but, you should "learn" when to steal and defend...just dont overprioritize it.

i think (not proven, yet) that standard TAG poker (20/10/2) is good enough for 25NL. however, i do like the idea of 25-30/10, too.

Chopper makes great points, and I totally agree. You could run 14/6 and still profit, I think. I've seen stats where guys run 17/12 and are absolutely crushing the game. However, it probably leaves a lot of money on the table, at least for most of us. Also table selection is probably a big part of their strategy.

Anyway, to answer your questions:
My blind steal is the same as my raise with a regular hand. My personal amount is 4-5x.

When you say "2nd barrel" I guess you mean cbet on the flop. I make it 1/2 - full pot, depending on the size. At 25NL, say I steal-raise to $1 and the BB calls. He checks on the flop. I don't like betting 1/2 the pot here, because it's the same as the preflop raise. I like to make it 1.50 at a minimum.

I steal a lot, and probably not as much as I should. Basically anytime it folds to me and I have something that's not total trash. I hate big-littles like K4, and I hate small unconnected cards like 36. I'd say anytime it folds to me and I have 45s+, 78o+, two cards over nine, any pair, any ace I'm stealing. And against a tighty, I'd say any two period.

I think you should steal against any range that often folds preflop or on the flop. Against very loose callers, I'm going to limp more often if I choose to play. For two reasons: 1) they're not going to let me steal. I can't push them off of pots. and 2) they call down big bets in unraised pots so I make a big profit flopping TPish hands and value betting.

You can steal from most positions in six max. Should be pretty common in CO and BTN.

I do not use different bet sizes by position. My bet is based on the table and the amount of limpers. Typically 4x + 1x per limper. If it's a loose table, I guess I don't steal a lot, but I would increase the amount of my raise if I decided to.

chopper & sejje: thx so much guys!
some great and very valuable information you are giving me here i feel!
- the issue of blind stealing has been a problem with my game ever since i started out. i am now very optimistic that with your help i finally get a hold on the subject. i am not obsessed with it but feel just like chopper says i need "learn" how to handle the issue.
- just to clarify what kind of game i am currently playing: it is 14/6 at FR and comes to 20/10 when i play the same game at 6max. my starting hands selection is mostly what renton has been recommending in his preflop strategy article. winrate is at a consistent 3BB/100 over 100k sample size, which is decent but not great. i marvel at how to adapt my play to come up with rates 6BB+. blind stealing or better the fact that i have hardly been blind stealing is probably one of the reasons i have not been able to up my rate.
- another reason my game has been decent but not really great is probably to smallish bet sizes. i have been betting 3BB with all raising hands. this might also be the reason my blind stealing attempts sucked in the past.
- now if 25-30/10 can be so much more profitabel, i find myself asking: where is that extra VPIP coming from? part of it is probably blind stealing but what else? i havent been raising small pairs 22-88 in the past. do you guys raise those? if so what pairs out of what positions? also i have dropped A2-A9 offsuit and K2-K9 suited and low/mid 1- and 2-gappers completely. when and how do you play those?
- one more question concerning the subject of blind stealing: what to do when you find villain defending by 2-3x your bet? in general probably fold? what hands do you call or maybe even 3-bet with what kind of opponents?

anyways some very helpful and detailed advice.
THX!

general advice would be as follows:

position becomes more important in 6max b/c of lack of hand clarity. boards will be harder to read because your opps will be raising hands like a8, kt, that they wouldn't be at a 10-handed table.

also, high-card hands, as well as ace-x hands increase in value preflop, while the value of suited connectors, or other hands with supposed high implied odds, decreases.

other than that, solid tight poker still pays off at the 6-max. if find it harder to multi-table though, considering the play is more read-based and less mechanical than 10-seated no-limit.

hope that helps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

- just to clarify what kind of game i am currently playing: it is 14/6 at FR and comes to 20/10 when i play the same game at 6max. my starting hands selection is mostly what renton has been recommending in his preflop strategy article. winrate is at a consistent 3BB/100 over 100k sample size, which is decent but not great. i marvel at how to adapt my play to come up with rates 6BB+. blind stealing or better the fact that i have hardly been blind stealing is probably one of the reasons i have not been able to up my rate.

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i think that is a "natural fit" for you to run AT LEAST 20/10. i cant imagine running less, but thats just me.

to come up to 6/100, i think blind stealing does two things for your winrate...it takes back the blinds you lose while in the blinds yourself...and, most importantly, it gets your premiums PAID OFF. you start to get labeled as "aggressive," and people will start to "defend" against your "steals." what they never see coming is you "stealing" w/ AA!! or other premiums where your villain becomes all to happy to RR you...and presto!!! you can easily commit him post flop to his whole stack!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

- another reason my game has been decent but not really great is probably to smallish bet sizes. i have been betting 3BB with all raising hands. this might also be the reason my blind stealing attempts sucked in the past.

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this depends on HOW you want your image to look. i dont know the "best" way to form it to your game (many say image doesnt matter in the micros...and i agree to some extent, but it does ALWAYS matter a little...so, why not practice it for cheap? there ARE some thinkers down here, too. just not a lot.) if you bet 3X a lot (assuming preflop), you should open up your raising range..as you will get a lot of action every time you raise...you wont thin the field. if you want to move to sejje's line of thinking, and raise it up to 4X-5X, then, thats fine, too. but you may not want to include TJs or 55 in that range of raising...you will miss too many flops to cbet effectively...imo. if you raise 3X, your numbers may run closer to 25/15...and if you raise more, you may look more like 20/12 or even less. it all depends on the situations YOU are comfortable with putting yourself in post flop. one other thing on this subject, if you raise/bet light...BE PREPARED TO 3BET LIGHT!! often times you will get raised back...because its cheaper than raising the guy that is 'raising 5X, and to "test" you. if you lightly "tap the glass," and someone "punches back," "punch" HARDER on occasion to stop them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

- now if 25-30/10 can be so much more profitabel, i find myself asking: where is that extra VPIP coming from? part of it is probably blind stealing but what else? i havent been raising small pairs 22-88 in the past. do you guys raise those? if so what pairs out of what positions? also i have dropped A2-A9 offsuit and K2-K9 suited and low/mid 1- and 2-gappers completely. when and how do you play those?

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this one completely depends on my table. i aim to play slightly tighter than the table. if you study vpip numbers, you can get a handle on what 33% vpip is playing. and 20%, too. hell, and 75%. when you have an idea, you watch the table...and adjust. thats much more complicated, but if you can bump the tighties out, and isolate the loosies...you play just better than their ranges, and let them tell you when they hit a good hand, all the while, value-betting them to death.

but, to answer your direct question, vpip comes from open-limping anything you deem playable, calling standard raises with hands you normally dont, and stealing blinds against tighter players from any position (if you see a rock in a blind, and you are UTG w/ JTs, take a shot at the blinds...if you get called, you reevaluate on the flop...when you hit your monster ((rarely)) BINGO!!!)

i will also play/raise any A from the button and sb when folded to...that helps vpip, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

- one more question concerning the subject of blind stealing: what to do when you find villain defending by 2-3x your bet? in general probably fold? what hands do you call or maybe even 3-bet with what kind of opponents?

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if he's solid, i tighten up considerably. if he's looser...i 3bet his ass. however, i dont steal with total crap. i need to have potential to hit a flop. i love it when i try to steal a blind, the guy decides to defend it and raises me back, but i 3bet him w/ AT, saying, "do you really want to make this an expensive pot with your crappy hand that you wish by now you had just folded?"

but its all so subjective. when you start to play more stuff, you will find your variance will go through the roof. if like me, you dont like that...but its a must to learn how to play in all conditions.

good luck.

I'm not sure 30/10 are good stats for 6max. Try and get them closer - 25/15 say (I play 21/14.5 personally and am pretty happy with that).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by biondino

I'm not sure 30/10 are good stats for 6max. Try and get them closer - 25/15 say (I play 21/14.5 personally and am pretty happy with that).

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I think you're right if we're talking about games over 50NL. But in those games people raise limps, raise coming in, raise blind steals, raise wide ranges, raise behind the back...

At 25NL, it's like casino hold 'em. Limps around all the time.

Anyway, I'm not saying 30/10 are the best stats, I'm saying they did very well for me at that limit.

25/12 is tough to show a winner at...but, i know 30/15 can win, too, if you are great post flop. i know LAGs that run worse, and still kill the micros, but as they move up, they must tighten the screws a touch.

the higher you go, the more 3betting pf you will see. its still the same raising stuff. but, it takes 3bets to isolate, from what i've heard.

-play 2-4 tables tight; more hands/hr will not make it seem so
-raise very frequently at CO/button; pre- and post-flop
-limp every so often from LP with suited cards
-bet draws and top pr hard (balance)
-get good at picking on nits until they crack
-induce bluffs from aggros

great, a lot more input from you guys. thx!
special thx to chopper for his very elaborate response, some great detailed infos here!

will jump in and start testing some of the ideas here as from today. hope things will work out. of course all theory is no good without the actual experience and i expect some rough water with probably more variance than i really care for until i get used to playing 6max and find ways of integrating your suggestions and the new experience into my play.

will keep you guys updated how it works out once i got something of a significant sample size.

- concerning dstir2's post: i liked all your recommendations. just not sure about this one:

"high-card hands, as well as ace-x hands increase in value preflop,
while the value of suited connectors, or other hands with supposed
high implied odds, decreases".

high cards being stronger figures from having less opposition preflop. not so sure about value of suited connectors going down. i understand the more players in on later streets the better for drawing hands with low odds of hitting, because i will get higher implied odds. from the little experience i have yet had from 6max i find that the number of players in on the flop on average doesnt seem lower than with FR add the fact that an average hand is weaker than in FR i might actually even have better chances of making the pot with suited connectors than in FR? am i going wrong somewhere here? also there seems to be a lot more full stacks and looseness at the 6max tables. wouldnt that too add to implied odds?
or maybe more to the point: arent really all hands gaining value with 6max as compared to FR? (price of added value being a more frequent payment of the blinds)

I know what you're saying, but punish limpers with position raises and achieve isolation with raises in any position. I've played enough 25NL to nkow that raising lost is a good thing - you might have a few more opportunities where limping is a good idea which might not work at 100NL but, by and large, a similar strategy will work.

(I killed £25NL - 80k hands at 9.4ptbb/100 - playing 24/14, fwiw)

if you see limpers trying to get in cheap, and you have position on them...bust up a big raise pf to chase it down to HU. that is what takes away the implied odds. 78s in a HU pot...to a big raise, and probable cbet of 3/4 to psb...kills any odds you may have to draw because its just too expensive to chase. people do it anyway...and thats one reason 6max is more profitable (see common misconception comment).

its the same in fr, imo. if you are being punished to chase, you cant get the same implied, either (most will tell you it helps implied odds because its easier to get the whole stack when you hit), but it also hurts.

when you bet heavy, and can fold to resistance (do you know how big a "chasers" balls have to be to RR the flop when you have TPTK and he is on a draw?), most of your stack is in "unprofitably" on the turn...meaning you dont get much more when you hit...you spent most of your money for the "chance" to hit your draw...not stringing TPTK along after you complete. when you miss (most of the time, obv), it gets REAL expensive REAL fast. and it should.

thats what i think the comment was about.

thats also why AX goes up in value. 6max, if played fast, is a TPTK game. draws just dont get the chance to play for profit...unless everyone is playing TPTK fast...then your implieds come back (see how crazy this game can be..and how important it is to play the texture of the table?)

if you can find a table that will allow you to open-limp AND raise to isolate...you have a gold mine. they are out there...not enough people know what to look for, or how to adjust and take those parts of the game away (me included). there are still plenty of loose-passive tables

poohhh, this discussion is beginning to get quite arcane for a noob like myself. i am beginning to feel i have to rethink a lot of aspects of my current game. hadn't realised the step from fr to 6max was such a complex one. a couple of issues here, i feel, i am not fully grasping yet:

- when and how do i play low/mid suited connectors or gappers JTs-54s, J9s-64s, J8s-53s? do i expect these to play at all profitabel or am i just investing in my table image to be payed off for my premium hands?
- implied odds at flop / turn: suppose i got flush-draw or open-ended str8-draw with something like a 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 chance to hit. i do currently call maximum 3/4 psp at the flop, 1/2 psp at the turn assuming full stacks. from my experience this has been profitabel at 25 fr. is it still at 6max?
- TPTK: if 6max is all about TPTK i probably need to analyse this play (i never feel very comfortable playing these) i suppose my standard 3/4 - 1/1 psb bet at flop should be ok. is it? if i get called i usually check on the turn when i am guessing villain has hit, c-bet when i am doubting the turn was any help to him. what to do when he calls that turn bet aswell, i always find this very difficult to decide. am i betting into a big hand or is he still drawing? trying to be careful i often check at the river. often i then find myself confronted with a psb. now what? is it a bluff or has he hit? in case i get reraised at flop or turn i have come to mostly fold. usually i find myself behind when calling such reraises. in fact often i find myself in a dilemma: on one hand i want to raise to shut out draws or make them draw at too high a price. on the other i dont want to be betting a huge share of my stack into a big hand. suppose i make it a psb on flop, turn & river. i'd be investing 13 times the original pot. most likely this is too much even against a loose caller. if i make it just 1/2 psb on the flop, turn and river i am investing just 3 1/2 times but also i am most likely laying odds. where is the optimum? 3/4? 2/3? probably i need different numbers for flop and turn bets. implied odds for the drawer should be worse at turn then flop? (considering there is one less betting round to follow). maybe something like 1/1 pot at flop, 3/4 at turn, 1/2 at river?
then of course many times i have TP decent but not top kicker. how do i play those?
AX: depending on X these play very differently from my experience. when an A comes on the flop i usually dont have TPTK unless i am holding AK. especially with A9-A2 i am usually worried and probably should be. do i just limp/junk these or what to do with a hand like that? (in fr i simply didnt play these not even from SB). AQ-AT i usually start guessing at the hand of my opponents if i come to think i am ahead i play as if i'd be holding TPTK. would you consider this correct? this play was profitabel for all AQ-AT in fr. will it be at 6max?
if X comes on the flop with no A then i know i hold TPTK when X is highest card on the flop. for low/mid X i must now worry about overpairs. still play like TPTK? what if X is just 2nd highest card on the flop?

seems more and more questions are arising...

cheers guys for your help!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

poohhh, this discussion is beginning to get quite arcane for a noob like myself. i am beginning to feel i have to rethink a lot of aspects of my current game. hadn't realised the step from fr to 6max was such a complex one. a couple of issues here, i feel, i am not fully grasping yet:

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dont get to overwhelmed. its not too complicated so long as your fr fundamentals are in place. a lot of this applies to both, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

- when and how do i play low/mid suited connectors or gappers JTs-54s, J9s-64s, J8s-53s? do i expect these to play at all profitabel or am i just investing in my table image to be payed off for my premium hands?

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you wont play them all for long term profit, imo. but, you can get most of them to be over a large enough sample. i like to "hide behind limpers" with them...meaning, if someone open-limps in front of you, you limp, too, with a sc or gapper. 79s is as low as i go with gappers. look to flop a strong draw or trips, play from there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

- implied odds at flop / turn: suppose i got flush-draw or open-ended str8-draw with something like a 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 chance to hit. i do currently call maximum 3/4 psp at the flop, 1/2 psp at the turn assuming full stacks. from my experience this has been profitabel at 25 fr. is it still at 6max?

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yes. i like to check/call them oop, and bet them my normal cbet when checked to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

- TPTK: if 6max is all about TPTK i probably need to analyse this play (i never feel very comfortable playing these) i suppose my standard 3/4 - 1/1 psb bet at flop should be ok. is it?

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yes. and fire again on turn, imo. if called twice, check behind on river unless you improve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

if i get called i usually check on the turn when i am guessing villain has hit, c-bet when i am doubting the turn was any help to him. what to do when he calls that turn bet aswell, i always find this very difficult to decide. am i betting into a big hand or is he still drawing? trying to be careful i often check at the river. often i then find myself confronted with a psb. now what? is it a bluff or has he hit? in case i get reraised at flop or turn i have come to mostly fold. usually i find myself behind when calling such reraises.

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i tend to believe river bets, too, when i am showing aggression throughout the hand, unless i have SEEN the same guy bluff and show.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

in fact often i find myself in a dilemma: on one hand i want to raise to shut out draws or make them draw at too high a price. on the other i dont want to be betting a huge share of my stack into a big hand. suppose i make it a psb on flop, turn & river. i'd be investing 13 times the original pot. most likely this is too much even against a loose caller. if i make it just 1/2 psb on the flop, turn and river i am investing just 3 1/2 times but also i am most likely laying odds. where is the optimum? 3/4? 2/3? probably i need different numbers for flop and turn bets. implied odds for the drawer should be worse at turn then flop? (considering there is one less betting round to follow). maybe something like 1/1 pot at flop, 3/4 at turn, 1/2 at river?

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i suffer from the same disease. but, i read a valuable comment in another thread. basically, dont bet smaller to encourage action, BET MORE OFTEN! i found that very solid advice. the smaller you bet, the more crappy action you encourage...which defeats your ability to read the situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

then of course many times i have TP decent but not top kicker. how do i play those?

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imo, like TPTK until proven otherwise. to me, "decent kicker" is J+.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

AX: depending on X these play very differently from my experience. when an A comes on the flop i usually dont have TPTK unless i am holding AK. especially with A9-A2 i am usually worried and probably should be. do i just limp/junk these or what to do with a hand like that? (in fr i simply didnt play these not even from SB). AQ-AT i usually start guessing at the hand of my opponents if i come to think i am ahead i play as if i'd be holding TPTK. would you consider this correct? this play was profitabel for all AQ-AT in fr. will it be at 6max?

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i dont play weak aces from the sb in fr, either. but, i 6max, i do. i see a button raise all too often to believe that an A wont take down KQ or JTs, which are all fairly standard button raising holdings when folded to.

mix it up with your AX hands. sometimes steal with them. sometimes c/c for info. sometimes c/raise a known cbettor that has position on you. i dont think there is any set rule or standard play here. it all depends on your kicker and your villain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunnyday

if X comes on the flop with no A then i know i hold TPTK when X is highest card on the flop. for low/mid X i must now worry about overpairs. still play like TPTK? what if X is just 2nd highest card on the flop?

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if i have the TP, i play like TPTK, but i dont forget JUST HOW VULNERABLE I AM. and dont take it too far. i fire one shot, and see what happens. if another undercard hits, it likely puts a str8 draw on the board, too. and i may fire one more barrel there, but i often check/fold if the first shot didnt work.

as for 2nd pair...in general i dont bet it in full ring. but, in 6max, it is often still best. that doesnt mean always bet out with 2nd pair. i like to bet some. and i really like to c/raise aggressive players with it. to me, those are "dont pick on me" bets. but, thats a hard situation. if there was a lot of raising pf, i dont like 2nd pair. if it gets limped, and the flop is dry, i take a shot. for all in between flops, i am about 75/25 checking/betting out. but, for the record, i dont like 2nd pair...i'm a nit. but, i have to play it on occasion because it does win with aggression quite a bit. you just have to be careful when that damned K3o keeps calling your QJ on a K J 7 board.

hope that helps a bit more. i still want to clarify i am no expert. if anyone else wants to take the time to offer any advice, please jump in.

we are both learning a lot here, i think.

thx so much chopper for this indepth reply! i am definitely learning a lot here even though i can feel there is still a lot of work ahead of me reshaping my game to 6max.
i have started playing some 6max tables. have played 7k hands in last couple of days and having quite a hard time. i am actually loosing 1.5bb/100 so far. of course i need more samples to analyze the situation. this might quite likely just be due to variance. just 1 biggish bad beat less and i'd be winning. will need at least 25k to have significant information.
some of the losses of course are also due to a lot of experimentation i am currently doing. i am not worried yet :P actually i am beginning to feel more and more comfortable with the new situation.
a few facts though are already becoming clear:
- Ax is profitabel (suited or unsuited) for almost all of these hands! this does actually surprise me a lot. i heard you guys, but didnt really believe these would go up in value so much! so this might actually be the biggest change in my game. i now play/raise these from late position or SB. with fullring if at all i was only playing suited Ax from late position and was still mostly loosing money on them. also i have the feeling from my stats that Kx suited can actually be profitabel from late position too. not so sure about this one so far yet.
- low/mid SCs are loosing. think will have to be even more selective with when to play these.
- pairs seem to be fine, mostly winning with them. loosing quite a bit with JJ and TT though. again most likely this is variance.
- high unpaired: mostly good. loosing with AQo & AQs though. probably overplaying them. need to handle with more care.
overall i have been running roughly 23/10 . (so i have been playing on the tight end of the ranges suggested above. this might actually go up though with more samples since i didnt play Ax nearly as frequently when i started out as i do now.)
- vpip from SB = 34.
- blind steal attempt = 17. still too low?
- WentToSDwhenSeenFlop/Won$AtSD = 23/55. in fr i was running 20/59. maybe calling a little too often?
- Aggression = 2.2. any suggestions as to a good value here?

i am still not so sure what the optimum bet size for TPTK is. currently running with 2/3 - 3/4 psb on flop & 1/2 psb on turn.
preflop bet size i did quite a bit of experimentation with. 4-5xbb though seems to get too expensive with missing too often on the flop. so i have settled back to 3xbb which seems to work out better.

cheers :)

still a lot of questions...thats good...keep 'em coming.

sample is low...but getting to where you should feel comfortable.

6max is a POSITION game...took me a long time to learn that one. stay focused on position when "experimenting."

low sc's...i wont play them when i open the pot...or am likely to be the only one calling a raise. i like to see 2+limpers (or loose players in the blinds) or at least one person calling a raise.

pairs...look in you software at your AA, KK, and QQ, if these numbers are not overwhelmingly winning, you are too small a sample to tell if ANYTHING is winning long-term, imo.

high unpaired...position, position, position.

i dont study sb vpip, but i DO watch my steal numbers...and i think you could/should get over 20%. again...use position.

other numbers...small sample...hard to tell. keep that AF over 2, and you should be fine.

bet size for TPTK...i cant stress this enough...KEEP IT THE SAME AS YOU OTHER BETS!!! if you start varying bet sizes, you may tip off patterns. like "soft bets draws...bombs TP" ...thats a note i like to use on guys that vary their sizes. KEEP THEM THE SAME. if you 3/4 the flop...3/4 the turn...dont step down until the river, imo.

pf bet size...depends on the table...ever heard that one? lol. truthfully, i like to open for 4X UTG, and never go over 5X with limpers, but i will mix in a little 3X from mp, button (when folded to), or a suited AJ+.

pp's...i like to sethunt these as much as possible...the mid-low ones. but will open raise them when i'm folded to every time...and cbet them most times i have position on the table.

hope that helps a bit more.

POSITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well seems like i have found myself something of a coach here... since i myself do teaching for a living it's good to have roles reversed for a change. thx so much for putting up with all these questions!! :shock:
- very good point concerning SCs. havent been conscious enough of making sure things go multiway with them.
- big pairs AA, KK, QQ are actually not winning overwhelming. running at 6.5, 7 & zero bb/hand respectively with this rather smallish sample size. have to see where these rates settle with more samples.
- and yes will try to get that steal frequency up above 20.
- pf bet size depends on table? hadnt really thought of that one yet. can you elaborate on that one please? like what indicators to look for for bigger or smaller pf bet sizes?
- variation of bet sizes i dont do much. i agree very much that i should give away as little information as possible to my opponents.
- pp i currently raise 99+ and limp all others from all positions. wrong? should i give raising the smaller pairs too a try maybe? raise all of them from all positions? why raise when it is upping the price for sethunting?
to make sure to build pot for when i hit? is raising the smaller pairs really more +ev than just limping or is this also dependent on table texture? if so what indicators for choosing either to limp or to raise?

you are emphasizing position a great deal. i do believe i play conscious of position. like tighter in ep and looser in lp. any other important pointers as to how to handle position?
what Ax do you raise/limp preflop from UTG, MP, CO, Button, SB & BB?
do you play Kxs preflop? which of these to play from what positions?
what high unpaired do you play from which positions?
do you generally raise more pf from EP than from LP? if so, why? for reasons of isolation?

cheers!! :cool:

allright, now we are getting a discussion. ANYONE DISPUTING THIS PLEASE CHIME IN!! i aint no expert thats for sure.

- dont try and get your steal % up just because i said so. and dont get it to 25% and think, "oh no, thats too high...i better stop." just keep stealing blinds WHEN YOU GET THE RIGHT OPPORTUNITY. and you will see your numbers climb. there are tables that you shouldnt steal at all, and others where you should steal every orbit. dont steal...from loose players. do steal...from rocks. the numbers are just going to be a compilation of all the tables and all the times you were in the CO and button.

- again, if table is loose...i tend to bump my raises up to "thin out callers." i go to 5X or higher if thats what it takes. in live games, you may see it requires 8X to get the pot down to 3-4 way!! conversely, on tighter tables, lessen up the raise amount. on passive tables with call stations, i tend to lower my raises...they only get called...why spend a buttload to miss? on aggressive tables you can either 1) raise big to isolate or 2) raise small and get ready to RR a lot. sometimes thats what it takes to "send a message" to the bullies. with bet sizes, YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING. either thin out callers by making it expensive to play, or pump money into the pot when you have a lot of potential. if first in, you may focus on thinning. if it limps around, and you have AQs, you may raise "light" to encourage more money in the pot. again, there are so many ways you can go with this topic...but you need to ALWAYS HAVE A GOAL IN MIND WHEN ENTERING A POT.

-raising 99+...fine. whatever you like. i sometimes (depending on table...see above) may limp JJ-. can you guess what type of table that would be? and others i will raise any pp. can you guess what table THAT would be? its all a matter of preference. but the real reason to raise smaller pairs is: to gain the initiative on the flop. if you have 33 UTG and raise it up...everyone but one guy folds...the flop totally misses you...wouldnt you like to take it right there? a raise gives you that option on certain boards. how? CBET it!! if he missed, he will remember your raise, and most times fold. when he calls, and you hit your 3 on the turn...do you think he will put you on a set when you bet again? NO!! now you got lucky and have a license to kill. mostly, you are aiming for a fold on the flop, when called, you give up. but, sometimes you will hit the turn....and WHAMMO!! youre not "Building a pot" for a 2-outer...thats not smart. youre "buying initiative." and, yes, it depends on the table. if you have a bunch of callstations...raising pp's before the flop oop is suicide. they arent folding to a cbet anyway...just limp, and value bet them.

- position, you pretty much have. but, you can c/r from oop and check-behind to induce bluffs when in position...but those are for higher stakes. just stick to abc down here.

- i, typically, only raise AX from CO+. i love it in the small blind when folded to. and in the BB when the button is a "known stealer." he raises, i RR with any A occasionally. if it doesnt take it right there...i have some thinking to do, but usually, it will.

- i play KXs on loose tables. the ones where guys are calling a lot of raises, and/or allowing limpers in a lot. but the only things i am looking for is 2 pair and flush draws. a lot of limp/fold with KXs. it really just makes me look looser than i am.

- i play any broadways. but dont call a lot of raises with them. i either 3bet or fold. 6max is a game of domination...and KJ, KQ, QJ, QT, AJ, are all great hands when you can do the opening...but suck big time when you are the one calling. again...use them im position as much as possible...i'm not saying dont play them in mp, i am saying...dont call raises with them unless you are good post flop...really good.

- i try to raise from all positions when i decide to open a hand. but, i dont call raises oop. i either 3bet or fold, except pp's and sc's in multiway pots. i just raise a bit bigger in ep....or with hands that dont do well multiway...like unsuited broadways. in lp, i can watch the pf action much better, and see WHO is in the pot...and make my decisions from there. is it a callstation? and aggro that simply limped? how bout both? then what do i want to do with JJ?

all those questions run should run through your mind when you see anything in your "playing range." always consider what you are going to do when its your turn...and part of that is, "what will i do if i pair on the flop? a draw hits? that aggro guy calls my raise? the passive folds only leaving the aggro...how will that CHANGE my strategy?"

it can be confusing, but with experience (of which i'm sure you have), these become second nature. but you will always find more things to think of to "trick, set up, screw over" your opponents.

and you should be practicing this at the lower limits...NOW!! dont think that abc is the only game you should play. yes, it works best down here, but how else will you "practice" for the higher levels? just make abc about 75%+ of your game...and mix in the trickery as it comes.

"wow, last time i did that...what would he do if i did this?" is never a bad question to ask yourself when learning the game...its, in fact, the only way you will learn what works and what doesnt. just dont overdo it.

hi chopper thx for all your help!
unfortunately my play is loosing bigtime :(
10k sample now and loosing to a point where it is becoming quite frustrating: -8bb/100h. 200$ or 8 buyins down.
dont know what it is but at the moment i feel like whatever turn i come to in a game i am taking the wrong route.
what i am not quite figuring is i am winning 54% of showdowns still loosing heavily. which has to mean i am loosing bigger pots on average than i am winning. with fr i was running at 55% so not much of difference here. WentToShowDown is also very similar to what i was running at with fr i.e.: 24%. so why am i loosing so badly? i am feeling quite lost there currently...
- pairs are winning significantly less than with fr. 0.44bb/h vs. 0.78bb/h. common sense though tells me i should be winning more on average considering i have less opposition with 6max. W$WSF for pairs is only 45% vs. 48% with fr. again common sense tells me this should be higher at 6max. when i hit set i frequently find myself up against a str8 or flush at SD or i dont get to build any significant pot. the fact of pairs winning too little is accounting for more of half the losses. considering i should be winning more this might be the major leak?
- high unpaired are loosing some when they were winning at fr.
- low/mid suited asses are winning quite decently which were about breakeven at fr.
- low/mid unsuited asses play about breakeven now. these were clearly loosing at fr.
-suited connectors are loosing somewhat more than with fr.
position stats looking quite ugly too:
Button: +0.10 bb/hand
1: +0.01
2: +0.02
3: -0.08
BB: -0.26
SB: -0.03
maybe this is all variance but then my worst downturn ever before was around 5 buyins. i am beginning to believe the numbers and guessing i am playing major crap at 6 max.
lost 1/3 of my bankroll with 16 buyins left at 25NL. what to do? continue experimenting or shutdown and move back to fr? i know i have to learn 6max if i want to move up further. no way past that one. but my selfconfidence has taken a serious hit...
the problem i cant really verify if this is down to variance or worse play than my opposition. sample size is not big enough. any idea what to look at in my data to clear that one up? when to pull the plug on 6max and rebuild bankroll at fr?

Pretend you are playing FR and every hand UTG, UTG+1, +2 always fold.

Sorry, this isn't my area.

personally, i dont like spending other people's money. i move down to 10NL 6max, and keep learning...or lower. but, self-confidence is everything. if you need a "shot in the arm," go back to fr for awhile. i admire your commitment to 6max, though.

as for WHY...i would say you are more willing to "stack off," than your competition, and when you can finally get someone to push in, you are 2nd best...that means tighten up when the money goes in. try taking more of your fr game to 6max...remember, dont open up for the sake of opening up at 6max because "thats what you've read." i think you can see why.

it has taken me awhile to get comfortable at 6max, too. i would say that if your numbers are about the same, you may be experiencing variance, too. but, all in all, i would say you need to play better post flop.

if you are winning small pots and losing big ones, you are either playing 2nd best cards (very hard to tell in 6max when your AK is up against T6o and therefore DEAD) or you could be too aggressive and pushing people off pots with big hands. please dont misinterpret that one...it is NOT a recommendation to slow play more. you just are not getting 2nd best hands to follow you...your opponents arent matching up well (2 pair against your set). again, could be variance.

believe me, i've been where you are, and i dont know the answer FOR YOU, but i bounced back and forth between fr and 6max...constantly comparing what i saw, and where i might be going wrong...until i started being able to "see" what they were doing to me.

just watch what they are showing down...if they are calling raises with crap, you will get them eventually. and remember what you know from fr...the game is about minimizing losses until you get a monster to double through on. the bigger your stack stays, the bigger the double up will be.

this wont sound true right now, but, if you were a winner at fr over a large enough sample, you understand the fundamentals well enough...and will win at 6max, eventually. when? i dont know, but you will...i promise.

keep that chin up.

thx chopper for your continued support and no worries it is not YOU spending my money :P
i am a noob and you are generously helping me to improve my game. you are investing quite some of your time to the good of others. thx!
also the money dont really hurt me i earn that kind of money in 4 hours of regular work. (i spent a lot more hours in loosing it though rofl but then it was money i had won previously. so it is really not relevant) it is more of an ego thing that's bugging me. i HATE loosing! rofl
anyways once again ever since i started getting into this game seriously 3 months ago i am realising there is more to the game than i had originally anticipated. i know i am not stupid and i have loved playing games all my life. i have played chess tournaments for 15 years and i can handle being up against some learning curves. i will learn to handle 6max. whatever it takes... if it takes moving back and forth between 6max and fr a couple of times before i get the hang of it well than thats just what i am going to be doing.
just did a quick 500 hands in fr and ran real smooth there. so my mood is good again and i am optimistic about getting that transition working at some point. actually it was interesting to play fr again after that 6max excursion. the game felt real weak! much more so than before. i felt i was playing it quite a bit better than before.
so the plan now is to play some more fr for a while to get my bankroll juiced up some then take another shot at 6max. a few more days of regular work than i have a 7 weeks summer holiday. jeeeehahhh!! that i will dedicate to getting this transition to work out.
i have learned a lot already from just the 10k hands. probably not enough to be winning at 6max but i should get there eventually.
i'd be practising 6max at lower stakes. unfortunately party poker dont have 6max tables below NL 25. so it will have to be moving back and forth at these stakes until i get my game up to a winning level.

cheers, man!

i swear its like i'm talking to myself sometimes. funny stuff.

i notice, too, that fr is weak after i play 6max. now, it just bores me to no end. i only revisit on super-coolers. :(

as for the time, a lot of guys in here have generously answered my questions, too. its just paying if forward, if you know what i mean. and, your time will come, if you stick around here long enough.

pride thing for me, too. but, if youre a cheapskate, like me, you want to only deposit once in your lifetime, too. i've only deposited once so far, and started with a borrowed $25. however, my story gets absolutely smoked by a lot of people in here, which is why i try to remind everyone (including myself), i aint the shiznit, no matter how hot i run...lol.

ahhhh, good times.

feel free to pm me anytime w/ updates, or post questions, it really doesnt matter...just keep learning.

and, maybe you could give me some chess pointers...i only know enough about the game to know i SUCK bad..lol.

I run at 27/12 and am a modest winner @ 50NL (~6PTBB/100 for ~30k hands). When I'm on top of my game this is what I do. Some of them aren't really orthodox plays, so read with discretion:

A) Play the player more
B) Focus on the postflop game

If opponent is
1) relentless postflop -- I would avoid him headsup, especially OOP, and only play premium cards against him (like AQ+ and all PP OOP).
2) a wannabe T/LAG -- frequent PF raiser but will give up when his c-bet with air is called -- play tight OOP but loose in position to exploit his predictability
3) loose (horrible) postflop (call moderate / big bets with TPnK / draw) -- keep the pot small preflop, play loose esp. in position, even call raise by a 3rd player

Other stuff that I do / consider:
1) Call raises with suited ace/suited conn/suited gappers for a multiway pot with good flop relative position. In multiway pots people bluff less frequently so your hand will be easier to play.
2) with TP-type hands your play is highly opponent dependent
3) Consider limp-reraising your good hands against T/LAGs who think they can get away by raising 6x on the button with 76s and get people to pay off their unexpected straights/flushes. Kill their implied odds.

hi chopper, just to keep you updated: i have won back all the loses from the 6max tables and a few buyins more. actually i was running pretty bad for almost 30k hands at fr, treading water.... but have run up nicely through the last 20k hands. i isolated some major postflop problems and seems i have fixed them at fr:
(i) i was calling too many large river bets. so you were correct with the assessment above that i was letting myself get stacked too much.
(ii) i was not folding TPTK or TPGK enough when getting my bet raised.
(iii) i did too much c-betting. simply got called much too often making this a major leak. i try to stick to c-betting when i hold air now only when i am the preflop aggressor and have position else i limp/fold mostly.
i feel i have got a much better grasp on when and how to be stealing blinds. definitely a very worthwhile addition to my game. mostly i steal with any Ax, 2 broadways or scs now. running at 24% for blind stealing attempts. fr pfr running higher now then before: 7%.
my whole game has seen a major revision really integrating a lot of the above suggestions. wasnt so much fun for a while since the results were little encouraging. but then as always with evolution - things must get worse first before they can get better.
well as to giving 6max a fresh shot i have decided to build a bit more bankroll first. currently i hold 25 buyins. will up that to say 40 then move. more bankroll should help to relax better and sit through some early loses. planning though to stick very near with my regular fr play first, giving me some pt data for say 20k hands which i can then analyze to plug leaks or find lost opportunities. one of the problems is really having a solid enough bankroll to buy me enough time to analyze the new game.

cheers :cool:

concerning the chesspointers you asked for chopper:
(i) most important would be playing MANY MANY games! yahoo-games offers a very nice interface for playing opponents of all levels but there is of course many others around the web.
(ii) play quick games to see more board patterns in the same amount of time to start building a vocabulary of typical formations. 5min/5min i.e. maximum 10 minutes duration for a full game should be good as a starting point for a few thousand games.
(iii) read books. there is many times more literature on chess than on poker. probably because the game has been around so much longer. theory of the game splits into 4 major areas:
a.) opening
b.) middle game tactics (analysis of the game tree)
c.) middle game strategy (long term planning without knowledge of concrete sequence of moves)
d.) endgame.
if i had to rank these by importance to get started these would go: bcad.
with b.) i.e. tactics the most important. no point in having a great longterm plan when you are going to blow it through some tactical fumble. then you would have to know strategy i.e. knowing what kind of longterm plans makes sense in what situation and how to evaluate if their realization might be reasonable. you will then have to look at opening theory which, since the advent of databases, has evolved a great deal through the last 15 years. maybe this is the most boring part of chess but no way past that one from a certain level onwards. endgame i believe to be the least important because at early levels the game is mostly already decided when the game reaches this stage.
my favourite author of chessbooks: awerbach (tactics, strategy, endgame)
(iv) programs: "fritz" is a must-have to analyze positions, look up openings or use as a demanding opponent. "chessmaster" i also like a lot especially when you have decent database of some 100.000s or more grandmaster games to go with it.

cheers

awesome job on the poker "rework." stick with it...and it sounds like a great idea to "overroll" yourself before switching, as the variance is a good bit higher at 6max.

and for the chess, i'll have to take a bit more time to digest your post. lots of info for a noob there.

the trick with chess...all of my time goes to poker right now. maybe, as a second "hobby." whatever the hell that is...lol.

thx