I'm talking about when you don't have any reads. And opponents don't have reads on you.
If the flop doesn't look scary and has only 1 scary card (eg. ace) should you always float?
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I'm talking about when you don't have any reads. And opponents don't have reads on you.
If the flop doesn't look scary and has only 1 scary card (eg. ace) should you always float?
depends on the level - At 50NL there are only a few players i will bother floating on at all....and thats only when i respect them -
course, im just learning to do it more often - I think i've done it 10x in about 10k hands, so its not a big part of my game, even though I love to pull it off whne I can - Usually i find that its too much risk for the reward though, so i'm more inclined to do it when i have SOME kinda draw - even a gut draw...if i have total squadoosh, i don't like to try it -
at 400NL though it must be completely different -
I don't like to float without a read.
Floating without a read is borderline retarded from a mathematical standpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
Thats like sayin, (really)
"Ok so i have QK and i raise, flop comes AQ9 and new guy at the table bets the pot. I have no read, Should i raise"
think about it
Also, Using the words Always or Never normally means whatever strtagy your talking about is more then likley wrong.
floating is for when you have Air....calling down with 2nd pair is different -
I know Im just saying is as stupid to float with no read as it is to question raising with second pair aginst an unknown. Same question type.Quote:
Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
i dont ever float...on purpose. ;)
when i find myself "floating," its usually against an aggro player in position. where i feel he is just cbetting his life away (to continue his image), and i steal it with a scary card on the turn or river.
but, i guess that constitutes a "read" of some kind. so, NO, i wouldnt do it when i dont know who i am doing it to.
Floating works best on draw heavy boards when the folloing conditions are met. IMO
1. Your oppent rarly leads out on a draw, OR, c-bets 95% of the time.
2. your oppenent IS CAPABLE of folding a hand.
3. You plan to bet the turn or river when the draw seems to hit.
Heres why i think it works
Basicly you add the draws outs to your own. Even if you dont have a hand you may have up to 6 outs with live cards. Say you JT and Vil raises AK
The board comes 256 2 spades and you have red cards. Your oppent makes his c-bet and you have a good reason to believer he has nothing but overs. You can now count your J and T along with the spade, knowing that when it hits you will represent it and the majority of the time your oppoent will fold.
I think Antonio Esfandiari is one of the better "floaters" out there. He is able to take away pots on scary boards. Also when he makes a hand he can call the flo with out sending too many red flags, wich in essence IS THE REASOn for floating.
If you only call the flop when you hit thinking oppents will tear you appart. Youll neve get paid eaither when you make hand unless you oppent has a good one too. by floating occasionaly youkeep you oppents guessing, you have great implied odds for runner runner two pair draws (LOL) when you actually materilize a hand its near impossible for your oppent to put you on it.
Over all i think the resounding theme is floating is for tough games with THINKING players. Agisnt donks it really has no value. The only value it has is simler to squeezer vig, being able to take away a pot with a weak hand due to previous tightness. And aginst donks getting them to fold hands like AQ on low wet boards isnt nearly as easy as good player. Save it for good players. At 50NL and down its just spewing chips
^^^^ covers it - perfectly....
when i say without reads - i mean we assume he is an average $400NL player.
an average player will cbet a T32r flop oop. the thing is, most of the time he will have missed the flop. a very hi percent. this same average player will then check when the turn brings a 7 or a wide range of cards.
if you have 58o it wil be profitable to call the flop bet ip in positon and float that flop.
i didn't phrase my question correctly tho. i was referring more to when you have a general idea of how they play but no real reads on them. youve played 3 orbits with them and havent got into any pots with them and havent notcied them doing enything noticable. this wood b an average player with no "real reads".
Why how do you know? Also it depends how willing your opp is to fold. A high is value betting that flop for the same reason you want to float it. If an Avereage player raises and i call with 58 im folding the T26 flop every time. I would tend to float a wetter flop.Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerroomace
Aginst a thinking player who raised preflop with any ace or PP those dry type boards are considered his not yours. If you float your gona be up aginst a lrge bet on the turn, even oop you may get shoved over if you pot it due to suspision as most hands strong enough to call that flop would have no reason to bet big aginst obvious overcards.
in that case i think the you think what he think you thinks type logic comes into pla making floating a spew.
Who thinks this deep at low stakes or even $400NL?Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAKE
That thinking isn't strong enough, because you assume way too much. If I get raised in that spot - I will fold my AK even if I think my opponent might be bluffing, because I know he could also have a set, an overpair, top pair, etc.
I have to fold my AK and calling or reraising would be spewing.
I would raise a set on that flop. Sometimes I will flat call with a set too.
Seeing as this is posted in beginners circle I would say the answer has to be "never!!"
At stakes like 400NL though, I might sometimes try these moves without reads soon after joining a table of unknowns because the players are more likely to be (semi)thinking so it doesn't matter if you get caught as long as you know how to exploit their perception of you.
i.e. building a bad rep can be profitable...
yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiLo
yes.
and how?
Foe games under 200 NL dont float, you rally not gona make any significt profit unless conditions are perfect.Honestly floating is probly one of the more advanced playes in hold em, if you not playing 300Nl your probly not at the level of play you need to be at to use this move profitably. Technicly speaking i play 1KNL live although never in my life have i brought that much to the table, i normally but in 400-500. I rarley float even at this game as i canturn a nice profit playing this style.
http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/tag/1-2-no-limit
Kind of a dont fix whats not broken. I think its safe to say the only time you ever even CONSIDER floating in a game unde 200 NL but aove 25 NL would be if you have an extremely nitty TI. If every time you bet everyone folds or every time you check someone bets you may consider floating to use that image to buy a few pots. Honestly though if i was fortunate enough to gain that image i wouldnt be trying to throw it away, most of the time as ther are always exceptions to the rule.
I think it's a big mistake to 'never' float at lower stakes. if you never call a flop bet w/ air, your flat calls are going to raise suspicions a lot more.
there are enough weak-tight players that will check-fold turns to make it a useful once-in-a-while play.
it requires a read though because there are enough calling stations as well.
It is definitely not necessary to be profitable, but it should at least be in the bag of tricks to be pulled out at special occasions, even at lower stakes.
I guess its just your definition of lower stakes. If you talking the like of 25 nl and uder your wrong IMO heres whyQuote:
Originally Posted by pgil
1. People dont bet the flop without ahnad in wich case your putting in money behind wich leads us to #2
2. people dont fold
3.Noones paying attention and the average player sits less then 30 min, odds are if your playing 25 nl for 2 hours the oppents are compltly different the second hour then the first, this is one o the main reasons to play ABC at the micros. Also how do you really bluff with a 10 doallar stack? If a guy wants to goto the river its not like he has to risk more then a cheap lunch (if even) to find out.
25 NL people will still throw out a Cbet without a hand, at least some will. Some will also give up once they are called.
granted, disguising your hand is less important at 25NL than at 100 NL, but it can still have some merit.
there are some players at 25NL who are trying to play "correctly", and that usually means folding too often, taking 1 stab and then giving up. Not calling with A or K high.
a side benefit of floating is it tends to make some players adjust their game out of their comfort zone, which leads them into even larger mistakes than they usually make.
just about any play can be profitable given the right situation.
I really dont agree with the first part but i strongly agree with the second part.Quote:
Originally Posted by pgil
i dont think "Most" players throw out a cbet at those levels, its the winning players that do maby 20% tops, and if your practising good table selection you shouldnt really have any, (although its tough FR)
As far as the comfort zone thing i agree with alot there.i just dont know if the -ev evens out. More then likly the player will just leave. Ithink live this is more important. I just cant see floating in 25NL making you more money. For the very little it helps it hurts alot more as most of the time your goning to bail on the turn, or get called down, or check down and lose. The few times it works out i dont think will pay for the times it costs you.
We have to understand that by nature floating is negitive ev. Its a meta game play that we hope will increase profits ove the long run at a give session. People just dont stick around or pay attention long enough. They dont fold enough or call too much.
Like i said before the main idea behind floating is throwing your oppents off, caonfusing them as to what a call on the flop says about your hand. Most 25nl players and under play THEIR hand not yours and they dont even think about what you might have when you call. Your probly better off checkraising air here and there then floating. It accoplishes the same things that could positivly affect your profit.
If this is what you meant...then the answer is that if we are pushing a thinking player around by representing straights and flushes but get caught out, then he is likely to start playing back at us with top pair like hands. If we realise he is doing this then as long as we are one step ahead it is payday.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAKE
We are much more likely to get paid off when we hit our big hands, so our implied odds requirement changes accordingly. Start calling his raises with speculative connectors and 1-2 gappers and we are almost guaranteed to stack him when we have a well concealed straight to his TPTK :)
at $200NL floating is profitable. probably even at $100NL if you have some idea of how your opponent plays.
if the flop comes 258r and your opponent makes his usual cbet oop. how can you fold?
you could either raise his cbet then and there or you could let a card come off and see if he bets again. if he checks you can bet 2/3 pot and take the pot down a lot of the time. if he bets again you probably have to fold.
a lot of players will cbet the flop and then give up to resistance including me. i've started to cbet the turn too a lot more now though when i think i'm probably good and my opponent is weak.
but oop it's hard to cbet 2 strts often and it will turn unprofitable if you do it too often.
i won't cbet 2 streets oop against an unknown and a lot of players play like this. so floating should be in your game IMO. maybe not under $100NL though.
mmmmmm yeah, agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerroomace