How to get the best out of SNGPT/SNG Wiz

I thought that I'd put the attached post together to illustrate how you can get the best out of SNGPT or SNG Wiz, whichever you've bought. Too many players who have these tools simply run their tourneys through them using the default calling ranges, and say, "OK, it was a push/fold/call/whatever, next!". I think the real value in SNGPT/SNG Wiz, and the way you can really accelerate your learning, is to play with the variables involved in a hand (cards, position, blinds, stack sizes, and calling ranges) and understand the effect this has upon EV.

Let's take an example. Apologies to the OP, but this is a hand from a $5.50 normal that is intuitively a fairly easy fold:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button (t2000)
SB (t1165)
BB (t2855)
UTG (t595)
UTG+1 (t4550)
Hero (t945)
MP2 (t1035)
CO (t355)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
2 folds, Hero ????

Easy fold you might say with 9.5x BB from MP1 with blinds at 50/100, and you'd be right. If all the remaining 5 players call with say 22+, A2+, KT+ and QJ then pushing this is -0.9% EV. But what would make this a +EV push?

- A better hand. If Hero had 44+, A8 here, pushing this would be +EV.
- If blinds were bigger. If the blinds were 100/200 ante 25, pushing K7s in this spot would be +EV.
- If opps called tighter. If opps called with only 88+, AJ+ (which is way too tight for a $5.50 tourney) then pushing here would be +EV.
- If Hero was in a different position. If it was folded to Hero in the SB then pushing K7s would be +EV.
- If Hero had a different stack size. If Hero had 300 chips left rather than 945, pushing this would be +EV.

Now of course you don't have to do this with every hand, but it's worth doing this with the close ones to understand what would need to change to make a good/bad push. This will help you recognise similar situations in the future!

For further tips on how to use SNGPT, here is a link to a very good article on (ahem) 2+2.

I must be getting good, as all of those variables went through my head in some form or another. I agree, at this level the only thing that isn't really relevant is the tightness of the calling range.

I don't have either of these programs, but what kind of hand do you need to push from the button looking at a the stack sizes of MP2 and CO in this scenario? I'm always confused on how to treat shorties in push/fold situations when they're in the blinds. I tend to tighten up, perhaps even more so than against a big stack.

Nice post Tai :clap:

I have just recently purchased SNGWIZ and am still currently getting used to using it. The default hand ranges on this are sometimes weird but they can be easily changed. I don't think I actually spend enough time using WIZ but I am about to start really analyzing my push fold game after every SnG I play where I got to shove mode.

I've been using WIZ after a game, looking at certain hands, putting villains on a range then seeing if I was correct in folding or shoving then going "i'll remember that next time" ....but will I really remember it next time without looking at the reasons behind why its a fold or a shove?

I haven't really been going "well what if X happened" or "what would it take for this to be a shove" or "what if I put him on a wider range, what would happen then?" etc etc...

Again, great post Tai, thanks :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Random_Hero

I have just recently purchased SNGWIZ and am still currently getting used to using it. The default hand ranges on this are sometimes weird but they can be easily changed. I don't think I actually spend enough time using WIZ but I am about to start really analyzing my push fold game after every SnG I play where I got to shove mode.

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I honestly don't think they're that bad. The problem is the WIZ covers SnGs from pennies to $530 and up. Obv the calling ranges differ at each level.

Great post :clap: I thinkit really helps to know exactly what range you would push in every situation when you analyse with SnGWIZ. That way you instantly know what to do in game.

Good post. That link you provided where Prodigy is going on about his ideas, the 2nd last post is him coming back to the topic and saying how much his ideas sucked...WTF?

Lately I have been a lot more strict in the situations I have been pushing. I think previously I was pushing too much. Even after reviewing with SNG Wiz where it says to push, I sometimes feel that it's not a push so it is sometimes confusing as to what is the right play. Maybe I was just pushing from bad position or not following my opponents closely enough.

I have lately started counting the # of hands each player has been limping throughout so I can get an idea of the tight and loose players. Also trying to track what they are raising preflop and calling raises with preflop as well. Simply having this info when it comes to push/fold mode has been invaluable.

Prodigy wrote:

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wow, I don't even click on STTF much anymore, but the time that I do, I see that my old ass thread has been revived..

and I can't believe how much is sucks

#1 is true but it really doesn't help at all...

#2 is very far from what I would have liked it to say..and my example not only doesn't illustrate the point I was trying to make, it doesn't even illustrate what I actually said

#3 is sexy though..ceilings and floors are important as hell bitches

1 for 3 isn't bad

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I think one very important thing in regards to ICM and these programs, is that quality of information in = quality of information out.

Often when we think 'I dont agree with ICM/SNGPT/SNGWiz", what we're really saying is that we dont agree with the answer it gave us using the ranges we input. That normally means we've input bad ranges.

For instance I might think "I agree thats normally a good push, but I've pushed from the SB the last 3 times, he's very likely to call this one so I dont think its right". In fact what that means, is if I think on this hand Opp has an extremely wide calling range, then I need to reflect that in my calcuation. I cant be using the same range as I did for the last hand(s).


That said, I've been really one-dimensional in my use of SngPT. I'm the typical user Taipan mentions in his post, I finish a tourney, I run through and review the hands as played. I take note of the hands I played badly, or pat myself on the back for not getting any wrong, and move on.

That said, I havnt felt I've been learning a lot. People like Taipan who faced with a decision and reads can say "well, my range for pushing that would be ..." and I'm "wtf did he get that from? How can he know a range for that specific hand". Or "no, fold that, but if you'd had XX I'd say push". I'm just not getting that from reviewing my histories.

Now I know :).

Thanks Taipan, really appreciate you taking the time to post this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

For instance I might think "I agree thats normally a good push, but I've pushed from the SB the last 3 times, he's very likely to call this one so I dont think its right". In fact what that means, is if I think on this hand Opp has an extremely wide calling range, then I need to reflect that in my calcuation. I cant be using the same range as I did for the last hand(s).


That said, I've been really one-dimensional in my use of SngPT. I'm the typical user Taipan mentions in his post, I finish a tourney, I run through and review the hands as played. I take note of the hands I played badly, or pat myself on the back for not getting any wrong, and move on.

That said, I havnt felt I've been learning a lot. People like Taipan who faced with a decision and reads can say "well, my range for pushing that would be ..." and I'm "wtf did he get that from? How can he know a range for that specific hand". Or "no, fold that, but if you'd had XX I'd say push". I'm just not getting that from reviewing my histories.

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We're in the exact same boat my friend :wink:

Btw, you should link this from the FAQ thread.