I've found the biggest leak among .5/1 and 1/2 grinders

The indepth discussion on the bet/fold and the check/call:

I'd like to discuss a really simple concept that is killing your winrate. I discovered it not to long ago, and it's really not that hard, but truthfully for the 1/2 grinder who just can't seem to move up, and the .5/1 guy who wants to improve his winrate, I think this is it. The single concept that if low stakes players understood they'd become ten times better players. Here it is.... are you ready?

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Bet/fold.

Yes. The concept is bet/fold. Some of you may be thinking right now wtf is he talking about. I know about bet/fold.

Oh do you?

You have ATs in CO, at 1/2nl, you raise it to 4xbb, BU calls, everyone else is out. BU is typical nit reg.

Flop comes T42, two spades, unfortunately you have two clubs. You bet out standard 14 into a 17, BB calls. turn is a J of spades.

OH NO! you think to yourself. WHAT A FUCKING COOLER CARD. I'm probably behind.... but ergggg! I could be ahead! wtf should I do!
I bet your first instinct here is to check, but it really shouldn't be. Bet it. Well what do we do if he raises? FOLD. It's that simple!

But what do most of you do? You check and convince yourself to call one bet, and then you check the river and may even convince yourself to call that bet.

What's the reasoning behind bet folding here besides c/c? Pretty simple. If we bet here we get him to call with a lot of worse hands with possible spade draws. If he raises it's pretty obvious we don't have the best hand and we should fold (there may be one player that we shouldn't fold against here, my guess is he's the best reg at your stakes).

If we check/call not only do we allow our opponent to play his hand perfectly, we also have no idea where we are at. He can check behind about 14 outs and hit for free. Or he can bet his made flush in which we probably have to call one street, but then the river makes us forced with a suck ass decision if his bet size is small enough.

Which brings me to another point, an extension to my rant.

You should bet/fold a lot more than you should c/c, especially at 1/2 and under.

Well..... when should we c/c? I can think of one answer. One is when we feel like our opponent is going to bet a lot of hands worse than ours, more than he is willing to call with.

I can hear you going LOL right now, and if you're not you should. How many players at 1/2 are ACTUALLY betting more hands that they are calling with? Almost none, and I can guarantree that.

Clearly
There are more reasons to check/call and bet/fold. I can think of a lot of them, but I can't think of a ton I can easily put into words, those you can figure out.

Conclusion:
-You should bet/fold more than you should c/c.
- In a situation where you have a marginal hand where you will call a bet when you check you're much better off betting.

Thanks, I'll try keep it in mind over my next few sessions.

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But what do most of you do? You check and convince yourself to call one bet, and then you check the river and may even convince yourself to call that bet.

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Its hard to check/call in position. Dare say I, impossible?

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

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But what do most of you do? You check and convince yourself to call one bet, and then you check the river and may even convince yourself to call that bet.

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Its hard to check/call in position. Dare say I, impossible?

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Wow messed that up, fixing right now.

one potential problem with employing this strategy is that the float is designed specifically to exploit this.

edit: albeit the total number of players i've encountered at the $100 level capable of floating or 3betting light is countable on one hand.

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

- In a situation where you have a marginal hand where you will call a bet when you check you're much better off betting.

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Great post. That line really sums things up and is super important. Sometimes when you are actually behind you can get villain to fold. Say in the example you had K10 for TPGK but opponent had A10, no spades. When the spade hits, he may fold if you bet. IF you check, he'll probably call a bet on the river.

proceed with caution though -- if you are already calling too many turn bets you shouldn't, this advice will probably make you spew worse, but if you have good turn play its great ev+

Similar stuff to what Ed's been talking and hinting at.

Ed Miller is going to fuck up yet another game.

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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

one potential problem with employing this strategy is that the float is designed specifically to exploit this.

edit: albeit the total number of players i've encountered at the $100 level capable of floating or 3betting light is countable on one hand.

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Umm, isn't this exploiting floating? Or are you talking about floating 2 streets?

But hyper, we beat a lot of floats. Floats are cool by us. And we can bust the people who raise with air all the time pretty easily.

Tytytyty ISF.

Fnord, by fucking up, do you mean tapping the tank?

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Originally Posted by Ash256

Fnord, by fucking up, do you mean tapping the tank?

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It's a negative sum game, do the math.

Anyway, small value/blocking bets OOP agaisnt weak players are the nuts and goes to the core concept that you beat the crap out of players who call too much and don't raise enough by betting often.

Hyper, this exploits floating, not the other way around.... or am I missing something?

hmmm, i think i got my definitions wrong...

in position:
you call, and bet the turn if checked to.

out of position:
check/call flop...check/raise turn...

hmmm, the OOP definition doesn't exist...does it...

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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

out of position:
check/call flop...check/raise turn...

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Against weak, unaware opponets just bet out half the pot or so a lot.

OOP floats are ballin if u can bet for thin value

Ok so I agree, betting could be better than check calling on the turn.
If we are raised, sure its easy to get away from it and fold.

BUT .. what if we are flat called on the turn. Do we fire a blocking bet on the river? check call the river? check fold? check call a small bet, because we are "getting the odds to call, and he could have missed his flush draw"?

Betting is probably the best play against someone aggro, who will bet when checked to. Though you could probably get a cheaper showdown OOP by checking vs a more passive player.

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Originally Posted by griffey24

Ok so I agree, betting could be better than check calling on the turn.
If we are raised, sure its easy to get away from it and fold.

BUT .. what if we are flat called on the turn. Do we fire a blocking bet on the river? check call the river? check fold? check call a small bet, because we are "getting the odds to call, and he could have missed his flush draw"?

Betting is probably the best play against someone aggro, who will bet when checked to. Though you could probably get a cheaper showdown OOP by checking vs a more passive player.

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as with most things, it depends. employing this strategy against a loose calling station is definitely spew when you don't hit your overcards.

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Originally Posted by griffey24

BUT .. what if we are flat called on the turn. Do we fire a blocking bet on the river? check call the river? check fold? check call a small bet, because we are "getting the odds to call, and he could have missed his flush draw"?

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This is where super expert hand reading comes into play, however chances are if you check I wouldn't really expect them to bet the river, especially in the situation we're describing but in others too. Idk yeah it depends but as you get used to more and more of these situations you'll figure it out.

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Originally Posted by griffey24

Ok so I agree, betting could be better than check calling on the turn.
If we are raised, sure its easy to get away from it and fold.

BUT .. what if we are flat called on the turn. Do we fire a blocking bet on the river? check call the river? check fold? check call a small bet, because we are "getting the odds to call, and he could have missed his flush draw"?

Betting is probably the best play against someone aggro, who will bet when checked to. Though you could probably get a cheaper showdown OOP by checking vs a more passive player.

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The river is based on reads and being OOP is just a shitty spot to be in period.

The more aggro someone is the more likely I am to check. That's best reserved for the river though because against aggro people you don't want to be all passive and confused on 2 streets in a row. But, as a general rule, the more aggro someone is, the list of weak hands they bet grows while the list of weak hands they call with shrinks. Just something to keep in mind.

I feel like I need to update this as my ridiculously marginal betting has now become a leak at the stakes i play at.

I STILL think that the biggest leak of 1/2 and below grinders is the fact that they don't bet/fold enough. Often players are so passive (the definition of tagg or lagg at 1/2 is not nearly as aggro than a tag or lagg at 2/4, in fact a tagg at 1/2 playing 2/4 i often refer to as tight/passive) That they are never ever betting worse hands than they are calling, which is why betting exploits them so much.

But when facing smart aggressive opponents there are many a time with a marginal hand that you need to be checking on these scary boards.

Here's an example.

You have AJ in MP. It's a 2/4 NL game with full stacks. You raise to 16 pre and get two callers, one from a 25/21 lagg on the BU.

Flop comes AT4 two clubs which i have none of, one check you bet out and lagg calls.
pot is now about $100.
Now at this point I think we're ahead a good amount without seeing a turn yet. It's hard to tell whether he'd flat call one raise pre with Axs, but we're beating that if he does. Obviously Tx is also there, as well as some pure floats. Flush draw I would say is most prevalent, except i'd expect a lagg to raise the flop here a fair amount with it, although he just as likely wouldn't.
AT we will see here some, and A4 rarely. AQ may not threebet pre. 44 you'll see here sometimes also.

So his range is pretty big.

Turn is a 9 non club.

My advice here is to check.

Reasoning, he's betting way more hands than he is willing to call a bet with.

I don't know that there is one hand besides a flush draw that he will call when he is behind with. But even if he plays a flush draw to a bet, the 9 has put out a lot of combo draws, and if he ends up shoving one of them it'll be a really hard call, one that I really don't want to make. Will he call a bet with a T? no. Will he call a bet with an A and weak kicker? no. So pretty much there's almost no value in betting.

Will he bet the turn if he floated? Yes. Will he bet the turn with a T? Well sometimes to protect from being sucked out. Will he bet a FD? At least sometimes, and there's no real difference between having him bet it and me bet it.

The river, as always is super tricky. But if he checks behind i bet the river for value. If he bets, ill often just check/fold the river not expecting him to try to get me off top pair or KK-JJ.

Hope that helps.

ISF- learning to reads hands if fun eh?

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

My advice here is to check.
Reasoning, he's betting way more hands than he is willing to call a bet with.

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I like that line. I have tried this with TPgk kind of hands where I am basically giving a drawing hand a free card. It's a tricky play but I seem to get enough value from the river to make this profitable. Often a busted draw will bet the river which I can snap call with my TP. I have experimented with this line as my hand was often vulnerable to turn raises by standard TAGG's who put you on a whiffed hand after they floated your c/bet.

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Originally Posted by silu_nz

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

My advice here is to check.
Reasoning, he's betting way more hands than he is willing to call a bet with.

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I like that line. I have tried this with TPgk kind of hands where I am basically giving a drawing hand a free card. It's a tricky play but I seem to get enough value from the river to make this profitable. Often a busted draw will bet the river which I can snap call with my TP. I have experimented with this line as my hand was often vulnerable to turn raises by standard TAGG's who put you on a whiffed hand after they floated your c/bet.

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You just have to think of if you're opponent is betting more hands then they are calling. Often however, this isn't the case at 200nl or below.

very great advice, just wanted to post a big TY.

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

when we feel like our opponent is going to bet a lot of hands worse than ours, more than he is willing to call with.

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This sums it up very well, the line we chose should be opp dependent.

Great post.

Great post, thanks.

yeah ive been taking up this idea recently, and i can honestly say it has helped so much. i still need to work on it though. i had a question though, kind of vague.

i find that sometimes by advocating b/f i bet too often. in other words i b/f a lot of places where i should probably c/f. here is hh.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button ($227.55)
SB ($198)
BB ($200)
UTG ($209.75)
Hero ($293.15)
CO ($255.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ac.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jd.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $8, CO calls $8, 3 folds.

Flop: ($19) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/td.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/5c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jh.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $14, CO calls $14.

Turn: ($47) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qs.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $32, CO raises to $92, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $111

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Originally Posted by will641

yeah ive been taking up this idea recently, and i can honestly say it has helped so much. i still need to work on it though. i had a question though, kind of vague.

i find that sometimes by advocating b/f i bet too often. in other words i b/f a lot of places where i should probably c/f. here is hh.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button ($227.55)
SB ($198)
BB ($200)
UTG ($209.75)
Hero ($293.15)
CO ($255.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ac.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jd.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $8, CO calls $8, 3 folds.

Flop: ($19) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/td.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/5c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jh.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $14, CO calls $14.

Turn: ($47) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qs.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $32, CO raises to $92, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $111

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Hmmm tricky spot. Yeah c/f may be best here.

ISF, you mention that line against a LAGgy 25/20. what do you do when villain is much more passive...more of a station, but you dont have a read that he cant fold TP?

The more passive someone is the more you want to bet rather than c/c.

in the AJ hand above bet-fold seems soooo much better to me than c/f because unless he's very aggro you won't be getting semi-bluffed (since K9, 89 and AK are very much in our range) and J9, KJ, T9, Q9, KT and AT will call turn pretty much always.

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

in the AJ hand above bet-fold seems soooo much better to me than c/f because unless he's very aggro you won't be getting semi-bluffed (since K9, 89 and AK are very much in our range) and J9, KJ, T9, Q9, KT and AT will call turn pretty much always.

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Yeah you convinced me actually, we don't really want to give up some pretty decent suck out equity anyways.

anybody thought about check/raise

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

The more passive someone is the more you want to bet rather than c/c.

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got that, but do you slow down when villain keeps calling on such a board? or do you valuebet 3 streets? i have been advised otherwise, and it makes no sense to me to control a pot when villain could have everything underneath you and only sets, two pair, and AQ/AK to beat you. sets he likely raises at some point, but not always. i just see it as missing value from TT, AT, A4, etc...if villain is a true station.

i am not saying stack off, but i dont like skipping a street of value against stations for sake of pot control.

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

The more passive someone is the more you want to bet rather than c/c.

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QFT QFT QFT QFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The way to destroy most terrible players is to bet a lot.

this is more common in the micros, but it is hella common there? what if you see free cards from the blind and catch TPNK? (e.g. checked to in BB w Q5 and flop comes Q92 three toned) i tend to check/bluff catch 1 street and hope for my hand to improve/raiser to shut down. has this been the wrong way to play it

I wouldnt worry about limped pots much... but hu id bet most tpnk on the flop, multiway its tougher, it depends.

Very true, especially on the river.

This really clicked for me recently, and the beauty of B/F was exposed to me. Not to do it, but WHY to do it. Pretty awesome.