JJ multiway line check

CO is 25/7/1.8 but I don't have any specific reads except a hand about an orbit ago when I won a big pot from him. I raised T9o from MP and villain called from CO. Flop came AQ8 rb, giving me a gutshot, I c-bet, he called. Turn brought a J for the 2nd nut straight, I bet 3/4 pot, he called. River blank, I checked, he bet less than half pot, I raised less than pot and he called with AJ. (SB & BB are solid taggs, SB is 29/21/2, BB is 22/19/4.)

I don't like how I played this... line check plz...

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $2/$4 - 6 players - Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $96.20
Hero: $931
CO: $434.40
Button: $412.40
SB: $435
BB: $418.30

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with J :diamond: J :heart:
UTG folds, Hero raises to $14, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 6 :club: Q :diamond: Q :spade: ($56, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: Q :heart: ($56, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $44, CO calls, 2 folds.

River: A :diamond: ($144, 2 players)
Hero bets $70, CO raises to $216, Hero folds.

I really bet the flop here

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Originally Posted by jackvance

I really bet the flop here

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Agree. Checking was really bad.

How bad is checking flop against this CO if it was HU?

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Originally Posted by minSim

How bad is checking flop against this CO if it was HU?

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how often do you slowplay?

I don't think checking the flop is bad. We have to fold to any raise and we are up against 3 villains with a hand that has showdown value.
I bet the turn.
I c/c or c/f river. If you check, he will probably only make you pay 1/2 PSB or $70 to see a showdown anyway. It is not unlikely that he hit his A.

This flop is a must bet -- we're usually ahead here and I think what folds is what may beat us on another street (e.g. AK) and what stays is what we beat (1010 and down)

Checking JJ on a flop like that, you might as well open-fold IMO ;p

$45 on flop, 2/3 pot turn

as played on river you have to c/c, I don't see how we can lead there
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mini, it would be much much worse to check the flop if it's HU, we're a ahead a lot more in that case and our hand has a hard time holding till river. Multiway, I'd say we have at least a 50% chance we're ahead so we have to bet to hopefully take it down there.

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Originally Posted by Silly String

I don't think checking the flop is bad. We have to fold to any raise and we are up against 3 villains with a hand that has showdown value.

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This is why I'd advocate betting the flop. You probably have the best hand, so bet it, and you'll usually take it down right there. After we check, by the turn or river it gets trickier with 3 villains in the hand who might have backed into something that beats us, and also if everyone checks one of them might try to go and steal the pot so you don't really know what's going on anymore if they start betting.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

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Originally Posted by minSim

How bad is checking flop against this CO if it was HU?

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how often do you slowplay?

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Not often, but what do you do to a raise?
If I would be CO in this hand, I'd raise or call flop and push the turn all-in and you would have to fold. (turn would have to be a blank though, not a Q like this hand)

You could push the flop to CO's raise, but what does that accomplish? It only folds out worse hands. You can call the raise and c/rai the turn, but that's pretty marginal IMO. (again, assuming turn would be a blank).

b) Hoe would you play AA's?
c) and 72?

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Originally Posted by minSim

Not often, but what do you do to a raise? If I would be CO in this hand, I'd raise or call flop and push the turn all-in and you would have to fold.

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No he wouldn't "have to fold." You're claiming that you'd push the turn all-in here with any two, but he needs at least trips to call? That doesn't make any sense. Against players like (appparently) you, when you're raised here, you call. A lot of the big pots we win with JJ-AA are from over-aggro players who decide to spew a stack on this type of flop.

That was assuming it's a heads-up pot of course. A lot fewer people have the cojones to bluff-raise in a 4-way pot.

Zook, I think your river value bet is good against bad players, and bad against good players. Was that what you were thinking when you made it, that this guy is a bad loose-passive player and he'll pay you off with any full house?

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

Zook, I think your river value bet is good against bad players, and bad against good players. Was that what you were thinking when you made it, that this guy is a bad loose-passive player and he'll pay you off with any full house?

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Yeah, river bet was for value. I haven't played a lot with this guy, but I rarely see stats like this at 2/4, so I assumed he wasn't very good. The ace is a big scare card though, so he might not pay me off with worse anyway. I might have saved money vs. c/c'ing though, since I really doubt he raises this river with worse.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

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Originally Posted by minSim

Not often, but what do you do to a raise? If I would be CO in this hand, I'd raise or call flop and push the turn all-in and you would have to fold.

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No he wouldn't "have to fold." You're claiming that you'd push the turn all-in here with any two, but he needs at least trips to call? That doesn't make any sense. Against players like (appparently) you, when you're raised here, you call. A lot of the big pots we win with JJ-AA are from over-aggro players who decide to spew a stack on this type of flop.

That was assuming it's a heads-up pot of course. A lot fewer people have the cojones to bluff-raise in a 4-way pot.

Zook, I think your river value bet is good against bad players, and bad against good players. Was that what you were thinking when you made it, that this guy is a bad loose-passive player and he'll pay you off with any full house?

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I think your point about making money in these spots because certain villain are over-aggro makes a lot more sense when in position. OOP, as hero is in this hand, it's a lot harder IMO.

Let's assume you're hero, I'm CO, we don't know eachother. You bet the flop, I raise, and apparantly you call. What do you do on a blank turn? You bet, I push, you call? or fold? You c/rai the turn?

Please note: I'm in no way advocating I know the best thing to do in these spots. I really don't know and would like to know.

i bet the flop a lot too, but checking isnt bad.
collectively they don't have more than like 8 outs, and by checking, someone may decide to call down on the turn and river.

the river is thin but bad opps call sometimes so whatever. u could just c/f though, if he's not bluffing or paying off with worse.

minsim, raising that flop with any 2 as a bluff is interesting.
probably +ev since the other ppl are likely to fold without trips.
but mcatdog has a good point...if ur image is crazy ppl won't give u any credit and just call down.