3betting OOP 6Max

I was originally writing a post asking why you would play medium strength hands like A-Q/A-J/K-Q OOP for a 3bet preflop, but in the process of writing my question i solved my own problem!

I think 3betting these hands OOP is +EV, because you get to find out where you stand earlier in the hand, saving you chips in the process.

"Por ejemplo"... (OOP)

Villan raises 4x, you reraise 16x with Ac-Qc from SB, Villan calls.

Flop: [9h Ad 3s]
You continuation bet 3/4pot, Villan calls.

Turn: [7h]

Hero checks, Villan bets 2/3pot. Hero ?

I can actually c/f this hand now that villan has called my flop bet and is leading the turn. IMO if villan was willing to call on the flop with J-J/K-K he is still going to check behind and try to get to a cheap showdown.

All told, we lost 1 bet


"Ahora" (IP)

Villan raises 4x, You reraise 16x with Ac-Qc from the CO, Villan calls.

Flop: [9h Ad 3s]
Villan checks, you continuation bet 3/4pot, villan calls.

Turn:[7s]
Villan bets 2/3pot. Hero ?

Against an unknown, I feel inclined to float this turn with the intention of folding to a river bet.

Sometimes this is K-K/J-J trying to find out if we have a medium overpair ourselves. In the above example K-K/J-J can check behind on the turn more confident that they are against a smaller pair once the turn has been checked. In this hand, those same overpairs have to be worried that a smaller overpair/bluff is going to take the pot away from them.

In this situation, i am usually going to lose 2bets.


Now that i write this i sense my logic may be flawed somewhere. So, critique away! GOODNIGHT!

(or, if this post is leading to a positive conclusion, help it get there plz!!!)

I don't get it. Are you saying that 3-betting AQs and the like OOP is EV+ because 3-betting in position is less EV+?

Your logic is probably flawed from the start because you can't calculate EV by comparing it to another situation. Meaning, 3-betting OOP has to be EV+ in itself, and this has nothing to do with 3-betting in position.

I also don't like the examples, I'd be more willing to stack off in example 1 then in example 2. Villain is showing a lot of strenght there, i don't think JJ-KK often play like that, whereas a float is more likely in example 1.

Is 3-betting OOP with AQs EV+ then?

It depends :-). Is villain raising UTG or from the button? Is he a nit or a maniac? What is my image? Stacksize? Limpers?

Reasons to 3-bet OOP :
- You are way ahead of late position-raisors range (for value)
- You don't want to play OOP without the initiative (Calling OOP is certainly the worst option IMO. Calling in position can sometimes be good though)
- You want to isolate preflop-raisor
- You want to take the pot down (this is a good result for AQ OOP)

And ofcourse for metagame, your 3-bettingrange is wider. Either villain is going to tighten up in late position, this is good. Or even better, villain is going to start playing big pots with you with marginal holdings. This is one of the biggest moneymakers in 6-max NL IMO. A lot of seemingly decent players don't seem to know how to play in big 3-bet pots.

Learn how to play good in 3-bet pots = $.

Also note that 3-betting for info, or knowing where you are at, is not in this list. It's a bonus, but overrated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom42

I also don't like the examples, I'd be more willing to stack off in example 1 then in example 2. Villain is showing a lot of strenght there, i don't think JJ-KK often play like that, whereas a float is more likely in example 1.

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I agree with this. When I saw hand 1 and I saw that you checked the turn, I was thinking to myself.. "check push it!"..and then you said.... "check fold??" hmm =)

It really depends on villain though. If I'm gonna re-raise AQ to a PF raiser, that definitely means I'm willing to go broke on an A high board, in a re-raised pot. Especially an A high board like you showed.

Sorry to interupt, but I've been wondering. What is floating?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Sorry to interupt, but I've been wondering. What is floating?

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Calling a flopbet (continuation-bet from preflopraisor) with a not so great hand in position, with the intention of buying the pot on the turn when checked to. The reasoning behind this is that alot of players C-Bet/Bluff the flop with air, but give up on the turn. Basiscly a delayed bluff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom42

Reasons to 3-bet OOP :
- You are way ahead of late position-raisors range (for value)
- You don't want to play OOP without the initiative (Calling OOP is certainly the worst option IMO. Calling in position can sometimes be good though)
- You want to isolate preflop-raisor
- You want to take the pot down (this is a good result for AQ OOP)

And of course for metagame, your 3-betting range is wider.

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QFT

I feel like a doofus when i post something like i did, someone provides a good response and i realize, "doh!, that makes more sense".

Thanks for the replies guys!


Disregarding my 3bet OOP strategy in OP, can someone explain in detail why it is okay to c/r AI or even continue past the turn in hand 1? From my standpoint all we can beat is a bluff and basically the % that villan would be bluffing would have to be fairly high, i think, to make continuing +EV. Isn't villan checking behind with a A-J/A-Q hand on the turn? Or a big pair that he floated with on the flop?

The fact that the board is so dry is why i feel that c/f is good, but i am looking for a counter arguement :D

I was wondering whether 3betting with 8-8 or A-Qs would be better against a loose villan who likes to call 3bets with SC's. I initially thought that the 8-8 hand would do better against a loose villans 3bet calling range due to the fact that a PP > 2 overcards against SC's.


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

65,067,552 games 0.005 secs 13,013,510,400 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 71.719% 71.05% 00.67% 46232674 432990.00 { 8d8h }
Hand 1: 28.281% 27.62% 00.67% 17968898 432990.00 { T7s+, 96s+, 85s+, 75s+, 65s }


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

328,762,368 games 0.005 secs 65,752,473,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 62.505% 62.26% 00.24% 204702056 791162.00 { AQs }
Hand 1: 37.495% 37.25% 00.24% 122477988 791162.00 { T7s+, 96s+, 85s+, 75s+, 65s }


However, when you put some other reasonable broadway hands and PP's into the mix...


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

965,739,456 games 0.005 secs 193,147,891,200 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.340% 51.95% 00.39% 501655980 3810378.00 { 88 }
Hand 1: 47.660% 47.27% 00.39% 456462720 3810378.00 { QQ-99, AQs-AJs, T7s+, 96s+, 85s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-AJo }


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

616,429,440 games 0.005 secs 123,285,888,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 58.771% 53.77% 05.00% 331429676 30850922.00 { AQs }
Hand 1: 41.229% 36.22% 05.00% 223297920 30850922.00 { QQ-99, AQs-AJs, T7s+, 96s+, 85s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-AJo }


Now A-Qs > 8-8. However, 9-9 is only has 1% less equity than A-Qs against this range, and J-J has 12% more equity!

In a post i wrote in my operation blog, i was evaluating the EV of calling with J-J/Q-Q type hands against a PF raiser when IP. My logic at the time was that our hand would be well concealed and we would win more bets off of a villan with TP. However, i have realized a few things.

1). Villan with a top pair of tens usually isn't going to go nuts. He might not even call a river bet if he lead the turn and got called/raised.
2). Villan might have a hand bigger than one pair, and i am going to lose a good amount of chips sometimes mistaking his actions for an over aggro villan with TPTK and run into two pair/set hands.
3). If villan is loose and will call 3bet, i am better off getting more money into the pot when i am so heavily favored against his range!


However, against a nit who will only call 3bet with a much tighter range of hands... (note: and also always 4bet A-A/K-K)

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

328,762,368 games 0.005 secs 65,752,473,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.925% 40.73% 00.19% 133909428 637980.00 { 88 }
Hand 1: 59.075% 58.88% 00.19% 193576980 637980.00 { QQ-JJ, AQs+, AKo }


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41,095,296 games 0.005 secs 8,219,059,200 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.800% 30.22% 06.58% 12417873 2705085.00 { AdQd }
Hand 1: 63.200% 56.62% 06.58% 23267253 2705085.00 { QQ-JJ, AQs+, AKo }


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... 8-8 is slightly better. It seems somewhat counterintuitive, but i am going to take pokerstoves word for it :wink:

Again, if there are mistakes please don't hesitate to point them out to me :)

I think Hand 1 is tough. I stoved his c-bet calling range and it all depends on whether you think it includes KK. Personally I think most villains can fold KK on an A-high flop, or at least wouldn't donk the turn with it, so I'm inclined to fold. I think villain's range is AA/99/AK/AQ:

Board: Ad 9h 3s 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 19.003% 02.90% 16.10% 23 127.50 { AcQc }
Hand 1: 80.997% 64.90% 16.10% 514 127.50 { AA, 99, AQs+, AQo+ }

BUT, if you think he does this with KK, it becomes an insta-call:

Board: Ad 9h 3s 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.116% 26.04% 12.07% 275 127.50 { AcQc }
Hand 1: 61.884% 49.81% 12.07% 526 127.50 { KK+, 99, AQs+, AQo+ }

Interesting situation. I don't think people bluff enough in 3-bet pots to make this a call.

Vi-Zero - re: your last post... I don't know any villains who will call 3-bets as loosely as the ranges you entered in the first half of your post. Plz provide sn's :) And while the tighter range is more realistic, we don't care so much about our equity with 88 when called, we care about the fact that we're folding a huge percentage of his LP raising range, even though we're even with most of it (and behind some).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Disregarding my 3bet OOP strategy in OP, can someone explain in detail why it is okay to c/r AI or even continue past the turn in hand 1? From my standpoint all we can beat is a bluff and basically the % that villan would be bluffing would have to be fairly high, i think, to make continuing +EV. Isn't villan checking behind with a A-J/A-Q hand on the turn? Or a big pair that he floated with on the flop?

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Why are you re-raising AQ if you are afraid to play it hard when you hit your ace?

I don't know, maybe I spew more than other players, but I sometimes call re-raises in position looser than I should, simply because I have position. Especially if i had some suited ace, so I would/could be calling this flop bet with a lot of aces.

Furthermore, if villain has been three-betting my button raises a few times, I won't necessarily put him on a strong hand. This is where I could be floating his flop bet with a wide range of different hands, with the intention of betting any turn if he checks. I agree that hands like KK/QQ might check through since they have showdown value, but if button is floating you with some suited connector he will probably bet the turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zook

Vi-Zero - re: your last post... I don't know any villains who will call 3-bets as loosely as the ranges you entered in the first half of your post. Plz provide sn's :)

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I know at least one villan... but that SN is for me :wink:

with a tighter 3bet range:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

106,162,848 games 0.005 secs 21,232,569,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.768% 46.47% 00.29% 49338786 311121.00 { 8d8h }
Hand 1: 53.232% 52.94% 00.29% 56201820 311121.00 { QQ-TT, AQs+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AQo+ }


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This isn't too unrealistic, nor is our equity in this spot. When you consider we will probably win the pot preflop anywhere from 1/2 to 3/4 of the time, we are definitely +EV to 3bet 8-8.


And A-Qs!

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

89,039,808 games 0.005 secs 17,807,961,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.347% 38.98% 08.37% 34709697 7448212.50 { AhQh }
Hand 1: 52.653% 44.29% 08.37% 39433686 7448212.50 { QQ-TT, AQs+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AQo+ }


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

Why are you re-raising AQ if you are afraid to play it hard when you hit your ace?

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Well, mostly b/c my postflop skills aren't not so great yet, and this spot seemed marginal :lol:
I will add that if the board in hand one where i advocated a c/f on the turn had some more draws on board i would probably 2/3-3/4 turn and then obviously call a push. I originally selected a very dry board to clearly illustrate the point i was trying to make in my OP.



When is it no longer +EV to 3bet hands like 8-8/A-Qs?


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

226,024,128 games 0.005 secs 45,204,825,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.895% 21.81% 13.09% 49288404 29582358.00 { AQs }
Hand 1: 65.105% 52.02% 13.09% 117571008 29582358.00 { QQ+, AQs+, AQo+ }


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85,615,200 games 0.005 secs 17,123,040,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.847% 41.66% 00.19% 35667146 160000.00 { 8d8h }
Hand 1: 58.153% 57.97% 00.19% 49628054 160000.00 { QQ+, AQs+, AQo+ }


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About the time villan stops trying to hit high implied odds hands like SC's and starts to slowplay K-K/A-A (equity slightly improves when some SC's are added - 2%)


Keep the feedback coming plz! This has been a really helpful post for me, mostly to start thinking about these questions in depth.

Vi-ZeroSkill also don't forget we win money by folding out a part of villains raising range. So even if our equity is less than 50% against a tight 3-bet calling range, 3-betting still can be EV+.

Edit : Yeah what Zook said :-).