K-K 200NL

I realized that i have run into this scenario periodically when i was reviewing some of my hands today. I don't really have a clear cut plan of action when i get c/r'ed on a flop like this. What would be the best way to proceed with this hand after i get c/red?

No Notes at the time, but when reviewing PT today i noticed a really weird hand where Villan open raised 10xBB preflop and then overbet shoved on a Q high flop with A-Q. He also triple barrelled PSB's on a board where he ended up runner runnering a straight. So, this guy seems fairly aggro.

FullTiltPoker Game #2424649855: Table Cimarron Crest - $1/$2

Hero: ($340.30)
Villan: ($318.20) (30/11/5 over 170 hands)
7 other players

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [Ks Kc]
4 folds
Hero: raises to $8
2 folds
Villan: calls $7
1 fold
*** FLOP *** [6s 7c 2d] ($17)
Villan: checks
Hero: bets $13
Villan: raises to $48
Hero: calls $35
*** TURN *** [6s 7c 2d] [3h] ($112)
Villan: bets $74
Hero: ?

I would either fold the flop or shove over his turn bet.

edit: Given the read, I'd just stick in all the money on the turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

I would either fold the flop or shove over his turn bet.

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You may have quickly solved my dilemna (<3mins :D ). I see how both lines minimize -EV and maximize +EV. Any idea how often he would be holding a set here (%)? Would you be more inclined to fold flop or shove turn? 40% fold 60% shove?

edit: lol i just read your edit. Thanks for the quick response Fnord. I will at least have a better plan of action for the turn next time (i folded).

160bb deep makes this a little more difficult. Even 100bb I don't like shoving this flop, b/c you're wa/wb (lower pp or bluff/set). I agree that you need to decide you're felting it before you call the flop c/r but if you are, I prefer flat-calling the flop and shoving the turn.

160bb might give you room to call and re-evaluate. On the turn you definitely need to decide if you're felting, but if you are, I still like calling here. Villain has almost $200 left, so he could easily fold a bluff or QQ-TT if you shove. If you're going to felt it, why not call turn and give him a chance to bet again? Very few cards hurt you here.

Tough hand.

Shoving turn is about a pot sized bet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Shoving turn is about a pot sized bet.

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Sure, but it's 100bb and calling leaves ~pot behind on the river. I think shoving the turn lets him play perfectly.

On a flop like this against a line like this at this level, you can basically discount a set slightly against thinking opponents, because they often think you missed entirely, and would seek value in a float line knowing you may second barrell against a potential scared range. That being said, you want to play the hand against his losing range. Smaller overpairs, straight draws, and weak top pairs.

That being said I would bomb the turn blank all in as if I'm playing against 88-QQ.

I second Randavu. This donk would smooth call your flop bet with a set, not raise you off your "missed QK / JK / AT etc." He prob has mid / top pair and is either a) catching your "bluff" or b) betting you off your "overcards." Smells like an A7, 88, or some medium pairish type hand. So I'd jam.

If they were 100bb deep I'd agree completely, but if he has JJ-88/A7 why push him off his hand with a 100bb push? Give him a chance to hang himself on the river.

call the turn call the river.
bombing the turn is nice but he cant get away from worse hands still.

Ok, so the consensus is that i am probably WA of his range on the turn. Great feedback by the way; it didn't even occur to me that he would be more likely to float a set hoping to catch me double barrelling.

I missed a lot of factors in this hand that would have altered my decision. Thanks again for the feedback everyone.

This was basically a bad hand all around, let my explain. :twisted: Your pre flop call was terrible and his call was probably smart. You should have waited to get get crabs ( pocket 3's) then made a small bet if he 2 bets you go over the top all in. The reason for this play is to go in with a hand that is at best gonna have you at a coin flip. If he floats you wait on the flop make a large bet ( 25-30 size the big blind) if their is all over cards which their will probably be go all in to try to isolate. You will probably be loseing badly at this time (at least 70 30 in his favor) but still just go all in because another crab or 2 if needed will be comeing to make your trips of quads. No problem for the help i can understand this dumb play by a young player like you but just take my advice because it is precious and will be given to you not often.

Well VI, I can already tell you are inexperienced in online poker and should bump your stakes down. Ill give you credit for knowing the fundamentals of the game but ask yourself "Am i just going through the motions" clearly the statement above by I<3crabs about waiting for a better hand was right although i might wait fot 5-5 or better so you can at least represent strength if needed. but pairs are always good preflop because of there ability to catch a third card of the same denomination on the Flop. This can kill somebodey if you isolate them correctly. Limp reraise, then make a huge overbet on the flop- Absolutley lethal. : D But your play was wrong becasue you hadnt grasped or felt the power of the villains hand. Id like to see you apply this knowledge and maybe you could become a more respectable player. Sorry its so brutally honest but itll be good for you

comedians of the year go to the two above...

gezzzzzzz

This is an outrage. You mock my reply to this post! How dare you? I am a very experienced, smart, wise player trying to help out a not so credible player and you mock my reply to his post?!?!?!? I am a better poker player than you hands down and i cannot belive that you would make such remarks about me and papapastachio. He also seems like a very good player who would know a hell of a lot more about what to do in this situation than you could ever fathom!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dmg7

comedians of the year go to the two above...

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gimmick accounts. Not very impressive so far, but not a total lost cause.

Ok... first of all i agree, this crabs guy may be a little cooky. But yet some of you listen to the advice of a guy with a crazy a$$ bird as his pic (fnord). hmmf seems like he may be up to no good and merely criticizing others for self pleasure. He doesnt even know the game of poker im sure. haha.Anyways i will back up my idea of waiting for, oh this time lets say pocket sixes. Ok imagine you limp and flop comes out 2h 4c 5d. You push all in and get called.... not so good right? WRONG! you have an over pair and a gutshot straightdraw. You have this hand won and dont need to see that the turn was a 6 as was the river. Seriouslly guys im making a valid piont. If you are up against over cards just fold on the flop or pull off a crazy 3 bet. Im out.... no more of this sassy comic stuff please.....
PAPA PISTACHIO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PaPaPistachio

Ok... first of all i agree, this crabs guy may be a little cooky. But yet some of you listen to the advice of a guy with a crazy a$$ bird as his pic (fnord). hmmf seems like he may be up to no good and merely criticizing others for self pleasure. He doesnt even know the game of poker im sure. haha.Anyways i will back up my idea of waiting for, oh this time lets say pocket sixes. Ok imagine you limp and flop comes out 2h 4c 5d. You push all in and get called.... not so good right? WRONG! you have an over pair and a gutshot straightdraw. You have this hand won and dont need to see that the turn was a 6 as was the river. Seriouslly guys im making a valid piont. If you are up against over cards just fold on the flop or pull off a crazy 3 bet. Im out.... no more of this sassy comic stuff please.....
PAPA PISTACHIO

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lol?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PaPaPistachio

Ok... first of all i agree, this crabs guy may be a little cooky. But yet some of you listen to the advice of a guy with a crazy a$$ bird as his pic (fnord). hmmf seems like he may be up to no good and merely criticizing others for self pleasure. He doesnt even know the game of poker im sure. haha.Anyways i will back up my idea of waiting for, oh this time lets say pocket sixes. Ok imagine you limp and flop comes out 2h 4c 5d. You push all in and get called.... not so good right? WRONG! you have an over pair and a gutshot straightdraw. You have this hand won and dont need to see that the turn was a 6 as was the river. Seriouslly guys im making a valid piont. If you are up against over cards just fold on the flop or pull off a crazy 3 bet. Im out.... no more of this sassy comic stuff please.....
PAPA PISTACHIO

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I feel a bit dumber for having read this .....

ok birdbrains(yea you fnord and your crony miffed22001)... you tell me why my idea is so wrong. Im confused by your harsh criticisms of me as i am not usually on the recieving end of rude remarks. Ok i know theres a lot of hype about AA, rockets, aces, big poppas, whatever you wanna call them but there not that good. Guys im just an experienced player trying to prevent guys like you from making similar mistakes that ive done in the past. If you continue your insolent, stuck up, snotty little remarks i may have to leave this site. You find a flaw in waiting for a pocket pair, preferably 3s-7s. You find a flaw and let me know...
kthanx
Big P

plz keep the comical commentary out of my thread...