bottom set in reraised pot. easy fold or felt?

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05-14-2007, 05:03 PM
wufwugy

bottom set in reraised pot. easy fold or felt?

no HUD. villian is unknown. hadn't noticed him get out of line at all.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($13.60)
Button ($26)
SB ($10)
BB ($24.50)
Hero ($24.20)
UTG+1 ($3.65)
MP1 ($24.65)
MP2 ($11.80)
MP3 ($9)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
Hero raises to $1, 5 folds, Button raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.

Flop: ($6.35) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $6, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $12.35

i put him on a very high likely hood of AA or KK, hence the call pf. baord is quite scary for him so his potsize bet could easily be top or middle set being scared or not wanting to give odds.

however, he would possibly play AK the same. i dont think he has AK, overvaluing something like QQ or AJ, or bluffing often enough here for me to donate my entire stack to AA or KK.

what you think?
05-14-2007, 05:08 PM
Miffed22001

pokerstove his range as AA/KK/AK and i think we have to felt it...?
05-14-2007, 05:15 PM
Fnord

Call me a fish, I felt this.
05-14-2007, 05:24 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

pokerstove his range as AA/KK/AK and i think we have to felt it...?

pokerstove isn't completely applicable since he doesn't always play AK like this pre. the majority of the time he raises me three times my open raise, he has AA or KK. im getting thin odds to set mine, but because i think his likelyhood of AA or KK instead of AK or QQ or garbage is so high i make the call.

fwiw, at this stake, the last few times i've been in this situation, no A or K flopped and i still took villians stack. no HUD so i didn't see what he mucked, but chances are very high he had an overpair.

he does not play AK pf like this as often as he is dealt AK.
05-14-2007, 05:33 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Call me a fish, I felt this.

your results are much better than mine so i wont call you a fish.

however, isn't this what set over set often looks like? i've invested about 1/8th of my stack, yet if i wanna see showdown it will all go in. my gameplan to set hunt against his presumed AA or KK pf must be really off if felting this is +EV since after the flop comes i somehow change my mind and think he's got AK or something stupid instead of the more likely AA, KK (as my pf read and actions figured in the first place).
05-14-2007, 05:34 PM
wufwugy

i have, however, seen AK here a number of times. so im torn.
05-14-2007, 05:36 PM
dsmrolla06

Re: bottom set in reraised pot. easy fold or felt?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

villian is unknown.

But you can put him on a set higher set? I felt this pretty much everytime against an unknown. Its ok if you call me a fish too.
05-14-2007, 05:57 PM
Ash256

What about AQ baring in mind that this is 25NL?
05-14-2007, 06:04 PM
dsmrolla06

I think AQ is also possible here. How often do you see someone with a set of aces or kings pot the flop at 25NL?
05-14-2007, 06:22 PM
Fnord

I don't given random online players enough credit to fold here. You probably get shown a bigger set or the nuts fairly often though so it's not exactly the crushing your opponent with a set kinda spot. But it seems to me to range from +EV or close so in goes my chips.

Most of the online games have gotten so aggro that I've just stopped trying to make anything but a routine laydown.
05-14-2007, 06:32 PM
LimpinAintEZ

25NL, random unknown, i am happy to get all in here...This seems like a standard bet for a good hand, like AK or AQ (this is a big flop, but AK doesn't want to see hand go a lot farther)....If he is pushing top set like that, go ahead and make a note that he plays real big hands real fast....otherwise, i'd say most of the time your good here -

my 25NL experience is that basically you can't give them so much credit - The big turn bets earn more of my respect as they scream set - I think this villain has a big Ace and wants you to go away...I haven't run into that many players who push a big set that fast....
05-14-2007, 06:35 PM
LimpinAintEZ

fact is, I see players at 25NL play AJ or A10 the same exact way...
05-14-2007, 07:29 PM
wufwugy

Re: bottom set in reraised pot. easy fold or felt?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsmrolla06

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

villian is unknown.

But you can put him on a set higher set? I felt this pretty much everytime against an unknown. Its ok if you call me a fish too.

villian unknown, not table unknown. not a whole lot of 3betting pf going on here, and when it does it's usually a monster. i have played back with QQ, JJ, AK enough to have figured that much out.
05-14-2007, 07:38 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash256

What about AQ baring in mind that this is 25NL?

maybe.

less 3betting at 25 so it's less likely. however, what they will loosen up with may likely be with something like AQ as opposed to an SC.

that's not gonna happen that often though.
05-14-2007, 07:55 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

fact is, I see players at 25NL play AJ or A10 the same exact way...

i've seen some bizarre stuff as well. some. most of which looked to be more like a bluff.

i honestly think that everybody underrates small stakes play. these guys are not all complete donkeys who dont have a clue about odds.

come down here, play back at them when they rep it, and see what happens. of course, my struggle with being able to beat small stakes is immense. so what do i know?

Quote:

25NL, random unknown, i am happy to get all in here...This seems like a standard bet for a good hand, like AK or AQ (this is a big flop, but AK doesn't want to see hand go a lot farther)....If he is pushing top set like that, go ahead and make a note that he plays real big hands real fast....otherwise, i'd say most of the time your good here -

my 25NL experience is that basically you can't give them so much credit - The big turn bets earn more of my respect as they scream set - I think this villain has a big Ace and wants you to go away...I haven't run into that many players who push a big set that fast....

so my pf play is wrong?

if they're regularly 3betting with potentially dominated aces, medium pairs, or whatever, then calling in search of a set to bust his big pair here is incorrect.
05-14-2007, 07:59 PM
Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

fact is, I see players at 25NL play AJ or A10 the same exact way...

How often? Id be very surprised to see AT from the vast majority of 25NL players here. Most of the fish tend to be quite passive and a nitty TAG never has AT here.
05-14-2007, 08:02 PM
dsmrolla06

Theres no reads on villain so we dont know whether hes a nit or not.
05-14-2007, 08:11 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I don't given random online players enough credit to fold here. You probably get shown a bigger set or the nuts fairly often though so it's not exactly the crushing your opponent with a set kinda spot. But it seems to me to range from +EV or close so in goes my chips.

Most of the online games have gotten so aggro that I've just stopped trying to make anything but a routine laydown.

they've also gotten tighter, so when they're in a pot, aggressive or not, they usually have something.

you're right about the EV being close. i positive that my decision was partly based on the fact that my last 5000 hands, lifetime at Stars 25, have been red, and this session put me in the green, and i wanted to keep it that way. instead of being pissed off and tilting since it seems that i cant help but suck at poker, or run bad, whatever it is.
05-14-2007, 08:27 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsmrolla06

Theres no reads on villain so we dont know whether hes a nit or not.

i pretty much never have specific reads on anybody at 25NL Stars. there are sooooo many players that im at the same table with somebody two days in a row, two weeks in a row, whatever about <1% of the time.

each stake, however, plays a certain way a certain percentage of the time. my feel for that is mainly what my player reads are based on.

of the eight tables im playing right now, two of them have two of the same players. i've never noticed seeing any of them before.
05-14-2007, 08:31 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

i pretty much never have specific reads on anybody at 25NL Stars.

In an orbit or two I have half the table pegged in any poker game.
05-14-2007, 08:46 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Most of the online games have gotten so aggro that I've just stopped trying to make anything but a routine laydown.

question:

100bb effective stacks. you're BTN with 77, three limpers, you limp, blinds complete and check. flop is 789 all diamonds. SB pots, BB calls, UTG raises, MP pushes, CO folds, action is to you. what do you do? ldobviously, texture matters, and i've provided none..... anyways, will you ever lay that down, or will you never lay down a set on the flop? what kind of circumstances does it take to lay down a set on the flop?
05-14-2007, 08:47 PM
bode

i felt this every day, and twice on tuesdays.
05-14-2007, 08:57 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

i pretty much never have specific reads on anybody at 25NL Stars.

In an orbit or two I have half the table pegged in any poker game.

how, exactly? specific or general? can you give examples? how many tables do you play?

i figure the table texture then try to notice player deviations.
05-14-2007, 09:04 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bode-ist

i felt this every day, and twice on tuesdays.

so you're sitting at a table with a bunch of unknowns, 3betting frequency is very low, one of the unknowns 3bets you, and you dont put him on a monster?
05-15-2007, 12:03 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

how, exactly? specific or general? can you give examples? how many tables do you play?

I pay attention and make lots of eductated guesses. I also play 3-4 tables max. That 5th table always fucked things up when I tried to massivly multi-table and now I mostly play for fun anyway. Robotic 8-tabling isn't my idea of fun.

However, button smooth calling a FTR member who's raising crap without showdown/high-card value every 3rd hand with Q7s, then floating an Axx board is fun!

Prediction: Abusing a tight/solid image will be the new LAgg.
05-15-2007, 08:03 AM
biondino

When I used to play 25, people never s-bet pre-flop without QQ-AA.
05-15-2007, 09:02 AM
gingerwizard

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

When I used to play 25, people never s-bet pre-flop without QQ-AA.

I play 25NL and three bet way more than that, so do lots of my opponents.

If you're playing scared because you want your stats to remain in the green then this is a good laydown. (and that's not meant to sound sarcastic)

Personally I felt this all day long and don't often expect to see AAA or KKK. I only remember 1 player in like 30k hands playing a flopped set that fast at 25NL, and if this is that time then so be it.
05-15-2007, 09:51 AM
dsmrolla06

I guess i dont understand why your so convinced an unknown wont 3bet you pf with AK. results?
05-15-2007, 09:58 AM
bigslikk

He might have AQ spades. Aces / Kings are possible, but I agree with gwizard, his play seems too fast.
05-15-2007, 10:07 AM
dsmrolla06

Not knowing what his 3 betting range is, it is really hard to tell anything about what he has with his flop bet. He could have 3 bet TT or QQ as well and betting into you hard because you checked to him, as are most 3 bettors 90% with atc.
05-15-2007, 07:58 PM
ShowMeAtlas

I cannot believe you folded this you sick nit.
05-16-2007, 03:49 AM
gingerwizard

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShowMeAtlas

I cannot believe you folded this you sick nit.

LOLZ
05-16-2007, 04:02 AM
acesfullokings

This is an easy raise, with any set I believe.
05-16-2007, 09:24 AM
rawrs

could he have a QTs?
I've seen people go in pretty hard pre-flop with worse.
As a self-confessed fish i'd go in on any set :D
05-17-2007, 04:04 PM
Vrax

What's the acronym of "Nasty Insufferable Tightass"?

Check/fold SET on flop in NL25...absurd...

As Fnord said - it's not huge edge situation against other tight player but it's still +EV to play for stacks here. With very deep stacks you may exhibit more caution but here you gotta felt it.