On Overbets: More than Just Fake Bluffs

Yeah this is not gonna be so lengthy, but what the hell, I've noticed something so I might as well put it out here.

I thing the main reason to overbet (with a solid or monster hand) is because you will make more money against 2nd best hands (not air). This is because by blowing off the natural progression of the hand, and just dumping in a boatload of chips, the hands are not "defined." The villain is confused, and might make a big call he otherwise wouldn't off. Okay, here's an example:

You hold :ks: :ts: and open the pot from a MP with 4xBB (standard at your table).

A villain on the button calls and its headsup (headup pots are rare at the donkstakes, but bear with me... pretend its a tourney and the blinds are significant or something).

Flop:
:as: :qd: :jc:

I think there's money to be made by overbetting this flop. (rather than standard slowplay, raise turn). Large bets indicate vulnerablility.

I don't know, did I just get lucky when someone tried to challenge my c-bet with with top pair? :D

No, I think it is the right move. I don't play online, just live games, and my main partner and I discuss this at length. Sometimes the all-in move (or overbet) is exactly what is needed to get the call. A potsize (or close to potsize) bet may push the player out, since the risk is high but the reward not so much. But, with all those chips on the table, an undisciplined player may take a stab, since they are there to gamble.

I logged on specifically to talk about overbets so am glad I found this :D

I agree an overbet is a good play in this situation. If the villain completely missed the flop it is unlikely that you will be making much more from him even if he hits something on later streets. So we may as well get the pot bloated now, hope the overbet confuses him or that he caught enough of the flop to call us down and play a big pot with us.

I like to divide the effective stacks by 6 and get that amount in on the flop. This makes the pot so big that we can bet more reasonable amounts on the turn and river but by this stage we are still all in.

e.g.
flop: both stacks at $90, pot is $9.
we bet $15, villain calls $15

turn: pot is now $39 stacks are $75
we bet $25, villain calls

river: pot is now $89 stacks are $50
we push all in.

If we can get the villain to do some of the betting for us all the better, in the above situation at the flop I like a bet of $5 against an aggresive player who hopefully will raise this "c-bet" to $15 for us... i'ld bet $8 if he habitually minraises.

Moving on from the above (apologies if this hijacks the thread) I would like to consider this situation with regard to deception. Something that just occurred to me this morning is that if we are using the play outlined above against observant thinking players then we must also sometimes overbet flops for deception. (I am talking specifically about leading out for an overbet, not reraising light). What do you guys think about this? I would like to know if people think it is better to do this if we completely miss the pot or if we do it when we caught a small piece of it? Also how important is flop texture?

Quote:

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I agree an overbet is a good play in this situation. If the villain completely missed the flop it is unlikely that you will be making much more from him even if he hits something on later streets. So we may as well get the pot bloated now, hope the overbet confuses him or that he caught enough of the flop to call us down and play a big pot with us.

I like to divide the effective stacks by 6 and get that amount in on the flop. This makes the pot so big that we can bet more reasonable amounts on the turn and river but by this stage we are still all in.

e.g.
flop: both stacks at $90, pot is $9.
we bet $15, villain calls $15

turn: pot is now $39 stacks are $75
we bet $25, villain calls

river: pot is now $89 stacks are $50
we push all in.

If we can get the villain to do some of the betting for us all the better, in the above situation at the flop I like a bet of $5 against an aggresive player who hopefully will raise this "c-bet" to $15 for us... i'ld bet $8 if he habitually minraises.

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Nice post! I personally don't really use overbets much at all, but i am sure this would make stacking weak players much easier! The division by 6 is a really useful tip also.

Quote:

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Moving on from the above (apologies if this hijacks the thread) I would like to consider this situation with regard to deception. Something that just occurred to me this morning is that if we are using the play outlined above against observant thinking players then we must also sometimes overbet flops for deception. (I am talking specifically about leading out for an overbet, not reraising light). What do you guys think about this? I would like to know if people think it is better to do this if we completely miss the pot or if we do it when we caught a small piece of it? Also how important is flop texture?

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Well, i don't think i would overbet the flop like this against observant opponents or without a real hand, since i don't think playing any number of big pots OOP is worth any deception we gain for our bets with monster hands. This is because sometimes our "monster" may only be top two pair/set, and when the turn brings the 4th card for a straight or the 3rd card for a flush, we may very well be WB since we don't know if they called the flop bet with a draw anticipating high implied odds due to the fact that we overbet the flop.

---Plus, i think they could steal this pot away (from me at least) if they figured we had a strong hand on the flop and are now worried about the turn card. ---


IP seems more +EV to use this play. Specifically, i would begin to use draws in this spot for deception. For example, i have [9c 8c] and call a preflop raise IP. Both of us are 100xBB deep.

***FLOP***
[7h 10c 4s]

He leads into me, and there i think an overbet would be quite good. First of all, when he has A-Qo in that spot, he has to fold. Second, lets say he decides to call with something like TP or a small overpair. He checks the turn to us, and now we get a free look at the river. Finally, when he has K-K+ and decides to shove, we can call and be something like 40/60 which isn't terrible. But, the good thing would be when we overbet the flop with 10-10 and he shoves with K-K+, and now we are 90/10.


In my opinion, i think overbetting OOP should only be used when you have the goods/against a weak unobservant player. IP this play gains more value since you get to use it to get free turn cards and take down more pots on the flop. I know this is the same as raising draws on the flop IP and that it gains the same sort of value for when you play sets like that, but by overbetting it is a lot easier to get all the money in on the flop when you are 90/10.

EDIT: I missed the "i am talking specifically about leading out, not reraising light part" when i responded to your second paragraph. lol, sorry. I guess i just in general wouldn't use the overbet play unless i was IP or against a weak unobservant player. IP against a smart thinking player, the hands i would overbet for deception would definitely have to include at least one overcard to the board.

I tried the over bet tonight. Boooyah!
PokerStars Game #9899928050: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/05/13 - 22:25:32 (ET)
Table 'Alma' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: OldePaddy ($29.80 in chips)
Seat 2: sushichan ($27.85 in chips)
Seat 3: WiggumVBH ($28.20 in chips)
Seat 4: combo778 ($23.15 in chips)
Seat 5: W4terloo ($26.15 in chips)
Seat 6: foxfx007 ($14.75 in chips)
Seat 7: mrhappy333 ($23.85 in chips)
Seat 8: Bunpy ($4.90 in chips)
Seat 9: option85 ($21.65 in chips)
option85: posts small blind $0.10
OldePaddy: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mrhappy333 [Kh Qd]
sushichan: folds
WiggumVBH: folds
combo778: folds
W4terloo: calls $0.25
foxfx007: calls $0.25
mrhappy333: calls $0.25
Bunpy: calls $0.25
option85: calls $0.15
OldePaddy: checks
*** FLOP *** [Th Ah 6c]
option85: checks
OldePaddy: checks
W4terloo: bets $0.25
foxfx007: folds
mrhappy333: calls $0.25
Bunpy: calls $0.25
option85: folds
OldePaddy: folds
*** TURN *** [Th Ah 6c] [7s]
W4terloo: checks
mrhappy333: checks
Bunpy: checks
*** RIVER *** [Th Ah 6c 7s] [Jd]
W4terloo: bets $1.10
mrhappy333: raises $22.25 to $23.35 and is all-in
Bunpy: folds
W4terloo: calls $22.25
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mrhappy333: shows [Kh Qd] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
W4terloo: shows [9h 8d] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
mrhappy333 collected $46.55 from pot
W4terloo said, "i don t believe that"
W4terloo said, "sic"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $48.95 | Rake $2.40
Board [Th Ah 6c 7s Jd]
Seat 1: OldePaddy (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: sushichan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: WiggumVBH folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: combo778 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: W4terloo showed [9h 8d] and lost with a straight, Seven to Jack
Seat 6: foxfx007 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: mrhappy333 showed [Kh Qd] and won ($46.55) with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 8: Bunpy (button) folded on the River
Seat 9: option85 (small blind) folded on the Flop

yeah nice move :D

I used to think pushing all in for a huge overbet with the nuts on the river was the wrong play (who in thier right mind could call that!) But decided to give it a go a while back and kept a chart of calls v folds. After 4 calls and 4 folds on the first 8 attempts I threw away the chart and decided it was definitely EV+ at least at the levels I play :D

from what ive seen at small stakes, over betting the nuts is +EV. I'm not sure why but people call them all the time.

Overbetting is by nature unbalanced as you move up levels. In other words, if it's employed too often it loses value for you against reasonable opponents. As an exception to your normal style it can actually increase your value short term, but eventually destroys it.

My point is you came here to learn how to win the most $$$. You win the most money through a balanced attack that includes neatly progressed pots coupled with reads, which make overbetting for the most part unnecessary.

Yes, it's easier to stack low stakes players with overbetting. It's also easier to just build a pot the right way and stack them.

Don't get me wrong. I overbet sometimes. Specifically when my opponent is strong, I hit a near nut hand, and they take an induction line. Also, when they are actually very weak in a built pot, and I have enough behind to force a fold. This happens, and should be part of an overall attack plan, but it shouldn't be overused.