Psychology: The beauty of admitting you're not good.

Everyone wants to be the man at poker. They want to be considered 'good', be a 'winning player,' and absolutely pwn people. They want to have a high winrate, never make mistakes, and to never spew. To never make a bad bluff, make a bad call, or live a bad life.

This thought comes from a story of my varsity golf camp. It was a day when we taped our swings, and the whole team went into a room to watch them and break them down. Everyone sat in that room that day wanting their swing to look good, to look like a pro, to have no flaws. They wanted their swing to be the most impressive of all.
My wise golf coach Ed however, knew this was the case, and therefore before we started gave us a long prologue.

"I know you guys all want to see an awesome swing on video, but the truth is your barking up the wrong tree. What would be the reasons to want to you having a good swing on video? I can think of a few. To look good for the others, to feel good about yourself, and to feel like you're a good golfer. BUT are any of these things going to make us a better golfer?"

We all thought for a bit... but the answer was no, it wouldn't.

"Now if we look at our video and see a bunch of huge obvious flaws, the natural inclination is to feel really bad about it. BUT why? What is their to feel bad about? In fact, you should be doing the exact opposite, you should really want your swing to look as horrible as possible."

He stopped there.

I was the best golfer on the team at the time, and when we got to my swing I was horrified by the massive flaws in it. This only drew Ed back to his prologue.
"I see that you're feeling bad about this Danny but let me explain something to you. You shoot 76's now right? Well imagine you just saw your swing right now and it was a spit image of Tiger's? Would you feel good? Probably. But when you really looked beyond the ego, you'd realize it's something you should feel horrible about. How the hell are you going to improve on a 76 with a perfect swing! It's really hard."
"Now that we see that your swing has massive flaws, we should be happy. You shot a 76 with THAT swing, that is that bad! There is a huge amount of improvement that can be foreseen from this. We could go to the range right now and in an hour you could be shooting a lot better, isn't that something to want?"

Thinking about his wise words I instantly became ecstatic.

In poker often we want to blame everything on variance, bad beats, and other various factors out of our control. BUT in reality, do we? If our game is so perfect how is it ever going to improve? There's no where to look in terms of improvement if our game is good.
But no one wants to see that they are bad. From about 6 months since i started poker to now I've thought i was a good player. In reality, i'm probably not, nor ever was, a good player. But 99% of poker players aren't admitting it to themselves, they don't want to believe they're losing money because of them, and therefore they don't improve. What people don't realize is 99% of the money regs are winning are coming from where? Players 'think' they are 'good.' Who play 1kNL in their first months playing because they think they can beat it. Bam, they get set over setted and suddenly everything turns into "WTF i am so unlucky." They eventually lose thousands of dollars playing poker, money that we the regs get.

I URGE YOU, DON'T BE THIS PLAYER! Learn that you aren't good. Yeah that's right, you're not. The truth is I can count with one hand how many good players there are on this forum, and i guarantee at least 2 of those players would say they aren't very good.
Learn that being new, bad, and sucky are good things. You have so much to learn in poker, and you will only stunt your growth for ever believing you have no flaws in your game, because if you didn't, Patrik Antonious wouldn't sit headsup with you.

nh sir.

Nice post.

In my own experience I learned this same lesson on guitar when I was 16 or 17.

I found that there were some decent players who thought they were so good. Therefore, they remained decent.

The best players that I knew were always looking to get better and were modest about their own skills.

I think the same concept holds throughout any discipline.

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The truth is I can count with one hand how many good players there are on this forum, and i guarantee at least 2 of those players would say they aren't very good.

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I have been around to several forums besides just this one and I believe this is a constant. I agree that stunts poker growth... among other things.

i think this is a lesson we ALL know...deep down. however, few of us will ever admit it.

i can testify to the golf story b/c, like you, i have played competitively forever, but i would NEVER admit i am "good." i may beat 95% of people in the world, but if you put me on Augusta this past weekend, i doubt, at my best, i would break 90. that SUCKS!!

poker is much the same as golf, sales, fishing, parchesi...it doesnt matter. THE MORE YOU LEARN ABOUT A CRAFT, THE MORE YOU REALIZE HOW MUCH MORE THERE IS TO LEARN.

i thought, like all of us, that after 10k hands, and a positive win rate, that i could CRUSH any game you threw at me, and i was ready for my PPT card. reality shows that even if you CAN beat the game, you still may not be "good." you just are playing others that are worse.

however, i do think you are a bit harsh on the regs here. i would say there are more than 5-10 "good" players here. maybe not many more, but certainly more than 10, imo.

meh, i still think their are probably five or so good players on this forum, but if im exggerating it's still just to make a point.
I lol, don't want this thread to become a debate about that.

Nice post, ISF.

You said a lot of what I've been thinking about posting in a "THE GAMES ARE STILL BEATABLE" post. Like you wrote, we're all making mistakes constantly, no matter how much we're winning. Just b/c the player pool is better than it was 6 months ago doesn't mean those players aren't exploitable. As long as you're reviewing your sessions carefully and being honest with yourself, the games will be beatable for a long time (forever imo).

Great thread, you're bang on the money with this and it definitely applies to a ton of things in life, not just poker!

i am the worst player ever.

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i am the worst player ever.

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NO I AM YOU'RE GOOD.

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i am the worst player ever.

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NO I AM YOU'RE GOOD.

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ok i am the greatest player eva!!!!!

great post ISF.

i fucking suck.

I suck ass too but am getting a little better, yea!!!

One thing I've noticed about really good players, they have alot of money!...LOL.

I don't! But I, at least think, I'm learning & improving most days. Time is the only thing that will define your skill.

I've just finished a run of what I call "bad cards". You know, can't get dealt decent cards in 20 hands, when you do get A-K etc., raise pre-flop & then never hit the flop.

Then you get on a streak of really "good cards". Ya call with J-9 & ya hit on the flop etc.

These runs, or streaks are common for me. They do affect my play. Emotionally, I go from thinking I'm pretty good, to feeling like I'm the worst player in the world!....LOL.

Neither is true of course. But the more I play, the more I learn. I do not believe I'm that good. Yet I do aspire to be good.

I've read books, lots of books. I get something from every one of 'em. Maybe I'll start a new thread discussing what bits of wisdom I've garnered from these books.

Great post, thanks for reminding me.

I don't know if I'm good yet. I started playing at a level where you have to be good to win.

I'm the best at everything I do until someone proves me wrong.

i know i suck, nice thread tho

My attitude is like this: I am far from the worst poker player around but on the other hand I have a very long ways to go before I can say I am good, doubt very much whether I will ever be able to say i am great.

I am an average man, a common man, "I am the best of the lousiest and the lousiest of the best"

I do hold this mentality when it comes to poker. I have played 10k-20k hands so far over the last couple months, have been a consistent loser. Now over the last 33 or so sessions, I have won money on over half of them. It's the ones that I don't win that really hurt me, cause I start losing, start tilting, and bam, down a buy-in

But I realize my flaws. I continuously read and study the several books I have bought. When I'm playing online, I always have either this forum up or 2+2 up. I bought poker tracker to keep track (go figure) of my moves, to make it easier to review my hands, and check for obvious leaks. And just because I have been winning over the last few sessions, I don't think for a second that I am 'good' at poker. I may be better than a decent amount of the players playing at my limit on PS (5$NLHE btw).

Nice post btw, I definitely can relater

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Originally Posted by Bozanic

One thing I've noticed about really good players, they have alot of money!...LOL.

I don't! But I, at least think, I'm learning & improving most days. Time is the only thing that will define your skill.

I've just finished a run of what I call "bad cards". You know, can't get dealt decent cards in 20 hands, when you do get A-K etc., raise pre-flop & then never hit the flop.

Then you get on a streak of really "good cards". Ya call with J-9 & ya hit on the flop etc.

These runs, or streaks are common for me. They do affect my play. Emotionally, I go from thinking I'm pretty good, to feeling like I'm the worst player in the world!....LOL.

Neither is true of course. But the more I play, the more I learn. I do not believe I'm that good. Yet I do aspire to be good.

I've read books, lots of books. I get something from every one of 'em. Maybe I'll start a new thread discussing what bits of wisdom I've garnered from these books.

Great post, thanks for reminding me.

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20 hands?

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Originally Posted by housefish17

When I'm playing online, I always have either this forum up or 2+2 up.

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When you are playing you should be concentrating on your opponents. read the forums before/after. Lack of concentration will cost you.

I suck.

(minimizes window)

acesfullokings
Re: 20 hands. Ayyah, 20 hands before ya get cards good enough to play, then miss the flop & 4th st. so ya have to fold 'em when ya get bet into or re-raised.
I am not fond of playing 7-2s or 6-3os or J-5 etc. So patiently wait for decent cards.

I think AFOK's point is that most of us have -- on at least a dozen occasions -- had runs of 20 *orbits during which all our starters sucked very very much.

:golfclap:

tl:dr

j/k this is probably the best post you've made yet.

I've always been saying that I suck. Game selection is my most important skill. Critically reviewing my game is my biggest leak. Thanks for putting these things that most of us already know deep down back into the spotlight.

20 orbits??? Wow! You guys have way more patience than I do! I usually move to another table/site after around 3 orbits. Any longer & I might start playing mediocre cards & then I'm back to picking up bad habits if I should happen to have any success.

Sometimes poker is like chess. A game of mistakes. The player who makes the fewest mistakes wins. If everyone played flawlessly, well, you can figure it out.

Hanging around too long without being dealt decent cards is simply a mistake for me, it may not be for you of course. However, if you are a solid player & have better self control than I have then waiting it out is best for you.

I'll usually go & do something else if it continues on for any length of time. Like study the FTR forums, read a book or do some of the chores I've neglected etc. I simply cannot play well bored. Yes, poker can be boring from time to time. At least for me.

Good hunting

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Originally Posted by Bozanic

poker is like chess. A game of mistakes. always

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FYP

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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

i fucking suck.

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Let's be serious. Don't you think you're giving yourself a little too much credit here?

ISF, nice post. I think admitting that there is need for improvement is vital to starting to see improvement in your game. Identify weaknesses, attack them, improve, rinse, and repeat.

To half the other posters in this thread, "You're right, I suck" does no one any good. Not you. Not any other FTR members. And especially not you. Go deeper than just realizing that you're not a god of poker. What can you do to take steps toward getting there?

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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

To half the other posters in this thread, "You're right, I suck" does no one any good. Not you. Not any other FTR members. And especially not you. Go deeper than just realizing that you're not a god of poker. What can you do to take steps toward getting there?

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im in no way happy with my situation and mentally cant accept being comfortable at the level im at. im constantly thinking about spots even away from playing poker

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Originally Posted by Da GOAT

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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

To half the other posters in this thread, "You're right, I suck" does no one any good. Not you. Not any other FTR members. And especially not you. Go deeper than just realizing that you're not a god of poker. What can you do to take steps toward getting there?

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im in no way happy with my situation and mentally cant accept being comfortable at the level im at. im constantly thinking about spots even away from playing poker

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Do you mean that you get hung up on messing up a play, or just that you think poker too much? The former is obv bad...but the latter is a bit more iffy. Any plans for what you can do to get past this hang up?

Not happy with your situation/comfortable with your level == you want to play higher stakes than you can currently afford? If so, why, and more specifically, why does it have to happen before you are able to grind up the bigger roll to afford doing so? Theoretically, shouldn't moving up before you've earned the roll make it likely that you'll be facing tougher competition without having adequately beaten the lower level? Why is that attractive to you? Is it an ego thing?

Hump Day Bump

I'm going through some grand ol' posts from the BC and bumping them. Every Wednesday, look for a new one, at least through the end of March.

Oh my.. Thank you Robb. Great post Danny. This is a wonderful thread, and one that the majority of people just won't understand. I'm fortunate to know that I have sucked since the beginning, and glad that I blame losing sessions on playing bad more than running bad.

I just read this and I'm really glad you bumped it. I know that I definitely need to start spending more time in session review. I certainly have leaks that need plugged (not folding enough for one!) so this was a nice reminder to dedicate some time to doing just that.

I think it's important for us to use the filters on PT or HEM from time to time to determine what parts of our play are actually +EV, instead of just going with common wisdom and assuming that what works for the typical TAGG works for us.

Wow, awesome post.. I can't believe I never saw this one.

I'd like to add that the more you work at something and the better you get, the more work you in turn have to do exponentially to see anymore improvement. In other words.. each increment of improvement you do past the beginner level takes more and more work to achieve. For you gamers, its like leveling up your character in an RPG :p

For example (keeping with the golf theme).. remember when Tiger Woods won the Masters by 17 back in the late '90s? Within that same year he looked at his swing on video and was disgusted at what he saw. Here he was, the "best" player in the world and he knew he could improve because in his eyes, he sucked.

So the guy at the TOP changed his swing because he knew he could be much better! Most people thought he was insane, but I don't think many people argue with him now. He traded about 5 wins or so between '98-'99 for about 50 over the next few years.

Want an example of the opposite reaction to "greatness"? Anyone ever heard of Johnny Miller?

A novice could not look at Tiger's old swing and new swing and see a bit of difference. But any low handicap golfer can really appreciate what he did. He literally spent 10 hours a day for 2 years to make one small change in his swing that made his game about .1% better. But since he was already .1% better than his competition in '97.. he is now twice as good as everyone else!

The list of people were the "best" that still showed up for practice earlier than everyone else and left after everyone else for their entire career is a small one.. but I think if you read each of their biography's you will see they have an insane work ethic in common... some examples are Ben Hogan, Larry Bird, Bobby Fischer, Walter Payton, and more recently- Tim Tebow and Michael Phelps.

These types of great people achieved a level that no one else may ever get to relative to their era... and they didn't do it by saying "I am the greatest" Oh wait.. Mohammad Ali did.. oh well so much for that theory.

Ought to be in the digest, imo.

Mods?

Great idea Robb. This is a good one too that I've never seen. I've always thought this way but at the same time its so easy to say "God I run so bad" than to break apart my plays and realize I'm spewing so much money that I could be saving even when I "run bad". In fact I think I'll go look at some HHs now.

I have come to fruition just recently that I'm not as good as I thought I was. I can take down just about any home poker tourney with a bunch of loose-passives. I've won a bit of money on the few casino trips I've taken. I've also went on big heaters online. This is my "Newbie Circle of Death" because it's 50% of me playing good and the other 50% of probably being lucky. Any decent poker player knows that the game is NOT 50% luck - when it is, that's where our big upswings generally come from. Well that, and sitting at a table full of player way worse than YOU.

IMO we should NEVER tell ourselves we are GREAT at poker. There are very few players that I would even consider to be "great" and even they are constantly working on their game. So what does that say about almost EVERY member here on FTR? Of course there are many players here with many different skill levels, but if ANY of us think that we are better than we actually are, we're in for a world of hurt.

Also, I never blame poor results on variance or bad luck UNTIL I find out the root of the problem and analyze the situation (just started that recently LOL). I used to do blame everything on variance because I couldn't tell myself it was really me not playing well and putting myself in ugly spots.

I break it down even more. We should never tell ourselves "I'm great at cbetting" or "I'm great at value betting the river." If we do, we've suddenly "capped" our ability to improve.

If you're a winning player, I think that alone makes you at least "good" since 60% of players can't even do that. After that, I'm just always trying to improve and let the long term results speak for themselves. Good bankroll management helps you stay honest and grounded. Ultimately it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about you. In fact, I'd prefer that players think I'm average or mediocre.

Having said that, I know a lot of live players who seem to think or portray themselves as good players and I think if they actually tracked their results, most would see they are actually losing players. Online it's tougher to lie to yourself as the money keeps track of itself for you. After multiple deposits, even the best liars can't do enough convincing to themselves then. :)

I'd like to add something else here. It's not that we aren't good, because most FTRers are good, or at least better than most because we've actually taken the initiative to get serious about the game more than the average casual player. So, we can tell ourselves that we are good players, but at the same time be humble enough to tell ourselves we're never as good as we think we are. Because the hard truth is that there is always someone better.

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Originally Posted by Airles™

I'd like to add something else here. It's not that we aren't good, because most FTRers are good, or at least better than most because we've actually taken the initiative to get serious about the game more than the average casual player. So, we can tell ourselves that we are good players, but at the same time be humble enough to tell ourselves we're never as good as we think we are. Because the hard truth is that there is always someone better.

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Well, your right about the initiative part. And I would say that most FTRers are better than the average player. However, you must realize how terrible the average player is. The majority of individuals playing micros, and even low stakes (100nlish), are terrible players. Just because we are better than those players doesn't mean we are good. In comparison to them yes we are good. But in reality, and in contrast with what our potential is, we aren't even close to good.

What ISF talks about here is really just common sense. If you believe you are incredibly good at something, then your going to be hard pressed to find flaws in your play. Things that are blatant leaks are going to be overlooked because you just feel you couldn't possibly make that mistake. Instead of taking an hour or two to review hand histories after your last losing session, you will simply chalk it up as you must have ran bad. And it's really a poisonous attitude to have.

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Instead of taking an hour or two to review hand histories after your last losing session, you will simply chalk it up as you must have ran bad. And it's really a poisonous attitude to have.

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This + infinity

And I used to do this. "Oh it's just variance" is what I'd tell myself instead of facing the fact that I'm just not that good. TG for FTR.

Wow. What an incredible post. I wish I was good enough at poker to really understand all the ways I still need to improve.

I've gotten into the habit of tracking every session I play. Site, # of tables, win/loss rate, etc. Then I take notes on my general impression of the session. It could be good or bad, but it's never all sunshine and roses. For instance, I might say 'I made way too many mistakes trying to bluff a calling station. I need to work on this' or something like 'I worked on my 3bet structuring today. It worked well, but I need to review for improvement.' At the same time, I try not to be too hard on myself, nor too easy. I rarely ever blame a losing session on variance. I can usually isolate 2-3 major mistakes that would have swung my session into the win column, and I review and study those circumstances.

On the other hand, sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade and realize it's negative variance and not get too freaked out about it. This happened to me earlier this week after moving up to $25NL. I my first session, I lost 2 BIs. I had three different hands where I went all in against very loose players with AK, and I flopped TPTK. Twice I was beaten by AA, once by a set. After losing 3 BIs, my tight play came around and I'm up 2 BIs overall.

The thing I want to focus on is how we speak to ourselves has a lot to do with how we mature. Just as Danny's coach was constructive, so we need to be with ourselves. Our thought process defines who we are, so we should strive to speak both honestly and fairly with ourselves. Saying thinks like 'I suck' during a bad session is tilt inducing, and generally not constructive. Saying 'that was a big mistake' is totally different. 'I suck' is a definition of character that is not easily overcome. 'I made this mistake' defines a correctable action.

Now, a lot of us here on FTR are building bankrolls, which means we are winning at poker. We're not mistake free, but we're making measurable progress towards a goal. I think this is where so many of us go wrong, thinking 'hey, what I have going now is working, so your advice doesn't apply.' I have been guilty of this myself, but it's something I'm working to overcome. Just as Danny was an excellent golfer (I would kill to shoot 76), being able to receive constructive criticism was the key to taking his game to another level. If he had said 'I'm shooting 76. I don't need your instruction,' he would have gone stagnat, and likely lost any passion for the game.

I love playing poker, and I never want to lose passion for this game.

This is motivation to start pullin' HH's to review and start readin' more books.

i actually think i'm a pretty spewy player. this thread makes me feel goot

My dad once told me "The more you practice, the luckier you get". He wasn't talking about poker but it really fits here.

But how do I practice poker without playing?
Before a session I look at the session(s) from yesterday in HEM and hide known cards and replay every hand in which I win $$ or lose $$. There are some that I remember but for the most part I don't. I don't know if I won or lost so I try to put villian on a range. It's good practice. And you know what my dad says about practice...

He also says "I CAN because I WILL". This one helped throughout college.

I'm also curious to what Iowaskinsfan shoots now...

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Originally Posted by Sasquach991

My dad once told me "The more you practice, the luckier you get". He wasn't talking about poker but it really fits here.

But how do I practice poker without playing?
Before a session I look at the session(s) from yesterday in HEM and hide known cards and replay every hand in which I win $$ or lose $$. There are some that I remember but for the most part I don't. I don't know if I won or lost so I try to put villian on a range. It's good practice. And you know what my dad says about practice...

He also says "I CAN because I WILL". This one helped throughout college.

I'm also curious to what Iowaskinsfan shoots now...

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The LUCKIER you get? I thought a good player considered luck to be the enemy. Getting better translates to better results, but it's certainly not a function of luck... I say NO COMPARISON. Poker is not like other games where skill results in profits day in and day out. A long-run conscious player makes the plays that favor him in the long-run, not plays where luck is the determining factor of his success.

In fact, I would go as far as to say, The better you get, the more lucky you're OPPONENTS become, because the better you get, the more often you're on the butt end of a bad beat.

Maybe I'm taking the quote the wrong way... i dunno, oh well.

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Originally Posted by saranacJACK

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Originally Posted by Sasquach991

My dad once told me "The more you practice, the luckier you get". He wasn't talking about poker but it really fits here.

But how do I practice poker without playing?
Before a session I look at the session(s) from yesterday in HEM and hide known cards and replay every hand in which I win $$ or lose $$. There are some that I remember but for the most part I don't. I don't know if I won or lost so I try to put villian on a range. It's good practice. And you know what my dad says about practice...

He also says "I CAN because I WILL". This one helped throughout college.

I'm also curious to what Iowaskinsfan shoots now...

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The LUCKIER you get? I thought a good player considered luck to be the enemy. Getting better translates to better results, but it's certainly not a function of luck... I say NO COMPARISON. Poker is not like other games where skill results in profits day in and day out. A long-run conscious player makes the plays that favor him in the long-run, not plays where luck is the determining factor of his success.

In fact, I would go as far as to say, The better you get, the more lucky you're OPPONENTS become, because the better you get, the more often you're on the butt end of a bad beat.

Maybe I'm taking the quote the wrong way... i dunno, oh well.

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You completely missed the point. It's a tounge-in-cheek way of saying that it's about hard work, and luck has nothing to do with is. Too many people attiribute success to luck, therefore saying "The harder I worked, the luckier I got" is the same as saying "The harder I worked, the more successful I got." Sortof like the old saying that luck is when preperation meets opportunity.

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Originally Posted by kb coolman

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Originally Posted by saranacJACK

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Originally Posted by Sasquach991

My dad once told me "The more you practice, the luckier you get". He wasn't talking about poker but it really fits here.

But how do I practice poker without playing?
Before a session I look at the session(s) from yesterday in HEM and hide known cards and replay every hand in which I win $$ or lose $$. There are some that I remember but for the most part I don't. I don't know if I won or lost so I try to put villian on a range. It's good practice. And you know what my dad says about practice...

He also says "I CAN because I WILL". This one helped throughout college.

I'm also curious to what Iowaskinsfan shoots now...

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The LUCKIER you get? I thought a good player considered luck to be the enemy. Getting better translates to better results, but it's certainly not a function of luck... I say NO COMPARISON. Poker is not like other games where skill results in profits day in and day out. A long-run conscious player makes the plays that favor him in the long-run, not plays where luck is the determining factor of his success.

In fact, I would go as far as to say, The better you get, the more lucky you're OPPONENTS become, because the better you get, the more often you're on the butt end of a bad beat.

Maybe I'm taking the quote the wrong way... i dunno, oh well.

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You completely missed the point. It's a tounge-in-cheek way of saying that it's about hard work, and luck has nothing to do with is. Too many people attiribute success to luck, therefore saying "The harder I worked, the luckier I got" is the same as saying "The harder I worked, the more successful I got." Sortof like the old saying that luck is when preperation meets opportunity.

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Thanks kb

It ain't luck at all if you work for it.

Robb, you are the man imo. If you keep finding gems like this and keep bumping them... good lord man, I'll be improving like mad. Like this post is friggin' gold just waiting to happen for me. In my blog all I do is bitch about how unlucky I get, even though in the back of my head I can plainly see that I was spewing with KK on an Ace high flop, or I had flopped a low flush and a fourth flush card came and when the villain shoves I called.

I like to think I'm good, but I'm only good enough to (sometimes) beat the fish at the stakes I'm playing. If I moved up to 25nl TODAY I would probly get bitch slapped back down. I'm glad you posted this. Makes me feel motivated to work on my game instead of chalking up my own stupidity to variance.

I think he's talking about the "shooter's roll." Great shooters seem to get more 3 pointers than hit, bounce, and roll twice around the rim before falling in. Why? They're so good that when they miss, it's not by much, so the rims are "kinder" to them. So their skill makes them more "lucky." It's not really luck, but it seems that way sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Robb

I think he's talking about the "shooter's roll." Great shooters seem to get more 3 pointers than hit, bounce, and roll twice around the rim before falling in. Why? They're so good that when they miss, it's not by much, so the rims are "kinder" to them. So their skill makes them more "lucky." It's not really luck, but it seems that way sometimes.

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Actually he was talking about taking math tests when I was in junior high school (a loooong time ago).

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Originally Posted by Robb

I think he's talking about the "shooter's roll." Great shooters seem to get more 3 pointers than hit, bounce, and roll twice around the rim before falling in. Why? They're so good that when they miss, it's not by much, so the rims are "kinder" to them. So their skill makes them more "lucky." It's not really luck, but it seems that way sometimes.

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I can definitely relate to this one.. years ago I used to decide whether to swish in the left side, right side, front, or back of the basket while practicing.. it also has a lot to do with technique.. good arc and rotation actually does hit the rim softer than those line drive bricks your average player throws up there. But how do people learn which shots are the "luckiest?" By perfecting technique over the hundreds of thousands of previous shots thrown with scrutiny.

Applying this to poker.. how do we know which plays are the best EV and cause the most "luck?" By playing hundreds of thousands of hands and going over them afterwards!

I guess we are comparing apples to oranges.. but all games/sports do have skill and luck.. skill we can affect... luck only sweetens skill and makes us run good.

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/t...n_imposter.jpg great post

i completely suck at poker..................TESTIFY!!But luckily im not gambling with my own money just yet.otherwise i would seriously be in the red!thank god for freerolls!!

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Originally Posted by saranacJACK

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Originally Posted by Sasquach991

My dad once told me "The more you practice, the luckier you get". He wasn't talking about poker but it really fits here.

But how do I practice poker without playing?
Before a session I look at the session(s) from yesterday in HEM and hide known cards and replay every hand in which I win $$ or lose $$. There are some that I remember but for the most part I don't. I don't know if I won or lost so I try to put villian on a range. It's good practice. And you know what my dad says about practice...

He also says "I CAN because I WILL". This one helped throughout college.

I'm also curious to what Iowaskinsfan shoots now...

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The LUCKIER you get? I thought a good player considered luck to be the enemy. Getting better translates to better results, but it's certainly not a function of luck... I say NO COMPARISON. Poker is not like other games where skill results in profits day in and day out. A long-run conscious player makes the plays that favor him in the long-run, not plays where luck is the determining factor of his success.

In fact, I would go as far as to say, The better you get, the more lucky you're OPPONENTS become, because the better you get, the more often you're on the butt end of a bad beat.

Maybe I'm taking the quote the wrong way... i dunno, oh well.

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Yep, you are.

It means the more you practice, the less you lose (because you're simply better, obv), so the less "bad luck" you seem to have. Nothing to do with actual luck - more with blaming luck for what is more likely a deficiency in skill.

Fits perfectly here.

EDIT: sorry, didn't see the posts after this one! LOL

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Originally Posted by Robb

Ought to be in the digest, imo.

Mods?

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+1

About the more practice you get, the luckier you get:

You missed the point, Jack. Luck isn't the enemy anyway, it's just part of the landscape. The origin of the saying is probably from pool. When you play around bars (for drinks, etc.) and win, a lot of people who don't understand the strategy of pool think you got lucky. There's even a line in The Hustler that goes, "You shoot good, but you shoot lucky, too!" People's perception of you is that you're lucky. I get it all the time in the donkalicious bar tourneys I play at.

very interesting,leaves you a lot to ponder,and a differenent view of situations

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...lovethread.jpg

im pretty terrible at nlhe cash. Trying to get better. I make massive spews and such.

great post/thread.

I want to thank you for this post, this describes my thoughts exactly. I thought I was good. I was blaming my losses on bad beats, but maybe it's because i blow at playing poker. I have now taken a new approach to each of my games. thank you so much again for this post.