Deepstacked 10-10-20 NL live hand

I was involved in a hand last night in the live game I'm often playing in, and would be nice to hear some opinions on it. We're playing 9-handed, and half the table is playing pretty loose, me and 3 others with 10k+ stacks, the other half are just sitting there waiting for hands.

Involved stacks:
MP3 - Player A - $15,000 - A player who calls down almost any bet as long as he has a piece of the flop, and tonight he's also been betting a lot, both as bluffs and weak/strong made hands.
CO - Hero - $10,000
Button - Player B - $20,000 - One of the best players in the game, usually kinda tight aggressive, but playing loose and gambling right now.

MP3 - Kills it, means that is $80 to go, and he is last to act preflop
Hero is dealth TsQd and limps in for $80 - Didn't see any reason to put more money in preflop against someone who never folds. Figured button would call too wether I raised or not.
Button - Raises to $300 - Most likely overpair or AK/AQ
Player A - Calls
Hero - Calls

Flop: 4d9dJd - Pot $900
Player A - Bet $600

This bet probably doesn't mean a big flush or a set, he would most likely play that slower. But it can be bottom pair, middle pair, top pair, all of these with any kicker, also two pair, baby flush, and just Ad/Kd/Td/8d. If I hit my straight, I can probably get quite a lot of value if he has a pair+, and if I hit a flush I can probably get value from a lower flush. But if he has me beat it can be hard to get off the hand as he has been bluffing a lot. I also have button to act behind me, I believe button will overcall with AA/KK with or without diamonds, AK of diamonds, and probably raise a set and AK with one diamond. So what's my play?

Shouldn't a person lead out their sets on a suited board? He either has a set or an A:d. You have 6 outs and the button still to act. If you do hit the draw and he has the flush you lose your stack everytime. Can we not find a better spot?

Fold to the button raise preflop.

As played, fold.

I've played at this same casino a couple of times and you guys don't understand how loose a lot of the players are. There are some players like Player A there whom if you make top pair against them, it usually means you're going to win a huge pot. You definitely want to get in the pot whenever you have two high cards and position on the fish. Based on Iwind's description of the player, him having a set or the A:diamond: here = LOL.

Iwind,

I don't get why you can't just call this bet and fold if the good player raises? He can't raise without a hand that has you owned because he knows the fish is probably going to call him.

That a person should in most cases lead out with a set here, doesn't mean that this person would do it, with this player T5o is just as likely, any two random cards that have hit the flop or has some kind of a draw, and a set he would probably slowplay. Still, we can probably find a better spot, I thought it was close between calling and folding.

This is just a tough, tough spot.

I think this you have to raise or fold the flop simply because it is a hand you'd be willing to play HU against UTG, but having Button behind you the rest of the hand will make it nearly impossible to play well.

Folding seems too weak, so I'd probably raise to 2200 or so. This puts a lot of pressure on Button, who will more or less have to define his hand after your raise.

i think raising preflop makes alot of sense. who cares if he doesn't fold pre? stacks are deep and u have position, u want to isolate the fish

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iwind

I thought it was close between calling and folding.

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I guess I am a terrible player, but I can't see how calling is any good in this spot if Button is a thinking player and has your same read on MP3.

It's not that he just doesn't fold pre, he usually doesn't fold post either with a piece of it or some kind of draw. Also, he had been doing a couple of huge 3-bets when people raised on his blind or kill. Like 600 more when I raised 120 UTG with 99 a couple of rounds earlier, then he had 52o and I called him down pretty light. Button will call a normal raise with any hand he calls $80 with, since Player A would be there and he was in a gambling mood, so a raise doesn't put me HU unless I make it $300+ which looks wierd even in a killed pot. (The killer just has $40 in there, so the structure is like 10-10-20-40 with $80 to go)

If I raise the flop to 2200, I believe button will call with the nut flush, as well as AA/KK with a diamond, the AK with Ad and probably just call with a set as well. AA-QQ with no diamond he will fold. Player A will call the raise no matter what he has, since his flop bet already indicates he likes his hand, but I don't think he will 3-bet unless he has a flush that beats me, he doesn't 3-bet bluff with a Ad here. I believe button knows this, so he can just call with Ad for 2.5:1 on his money with plenty of money behind. So I will make the pot 7.5K or 5.3K depending on buttons action.

So I get button to fold QQ-AA with no diamonds, but I don't mind him being in there with those hands. I get to narrow his range down if he calls, which is obv a good thing, but still I might have fold the best hand if I turn or river a straight and face a bet from Player A when button is behind me. Best case would obv be button folding and I'm HU vs. player A.

Is it a good idea to make the pot so big with a marginal hand like this? I didn't think so at the time, and I still don't think so, I'd prefer to keep the pot a little more under control to have room for more play. I see the advantages of the raise though, maybe it's better, I didn't really know how to play in this hand that's why the post :)

Maybe raising the flop is really a limit concept, with the hopes promoting your Q outs and increasing your overall equity against MP3 who could have lots of marginal hands. If Button folds, theres a good chance you'll pick up most of his equity since MP3 is a donk.

If you just call, it seems like an invitation to Button to squeeze you with any good hand since he knows MP3 is often weak and you should be raising strong hands to buy the button for the remaining streets as well as get more money in the pot from MP3. If you call and Button then raises the flop to, say, 3000 or more, you'll be in another tough spot once MP3 calls and you're getting better than 3:1 without knowing if your draws are live.

How likely is it that good player behind us will actually get spooked by our flat call in the middle. He must know that we should try to raise him out... so if we don't - might he think we are s/p the nutz? Not going to work if he has the Ad, obv. And I am assuming he's capable of thinking 4 levels if iwind says he's a good player 10-10-20 (sounds like a collect calling line)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenbitz

How likely is it that good player behind us will actually get spooked by our flat call in the middle. He must know that we should try to raise him out... so if we don't - might he think we are s/p the nutz? Not going to work if he has the Ad, obv. And I am assuming he's capable of thinking 4 levels if iwind says he's a good player 10-10-20 (sounds like a collect calling line)

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They way I see it, if you are going to put in another $1500 or so, you ought to at least try to make Button define his hand. If not, if Button raises the flop or if MP3 fires out another bet on a diamond turn, you are in a much tougher spot with an even bigger pot.

If Button calls my flop raise, I'm going to discount my diamond outs deeply and pretty much play for the straight. I'm much happier paying off a flopped flush with a straight than the Ad/Kd with the Qd here.

There really isn't much value in having AA/KK with no diamond along for the ride. Losing the flop bet from Button calling with these hands is partially made up for by gaining equity versus MP3's middle/bottom pairs and weak draws. If another diamong hits, then AA/KK with no diamond isn't going to pay off, and might not even if you hit your straight (well, KK might).