i haven't seen any AA hands posted in a while, so heres one

villain is a loose kinda aggressive retard (something like 40/12/2). I have no real history with him though

i have been playing like 26/20 pretty aggressive

his flop call is insta, his turn call is *pause 3 seconds, then call*, and his river push is insta

FullTiltPoker Game #1870855084: Table Bonanza (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:39:51 ET - 2007/02/25
Seat 2: Grumpy Hippo ($200)
Seat 3: lottabourbon ($195.30)
Seat 4: Gerard Bauza ($277.55)
Seat 5: loloPOZZEDu ($453.10)
Seat 6: Muffinmuncher ($75)
Grumpy Hippo posts the small blind of $1
lottabourbon posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #1

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to loloPOZZEDu [Ac Ad]

Gerard Bauza calls $2
loloPOZZEDu raises to $9
Muffinmuncher folds
Grumpy Hippo folds
lottabourbon calls $7
Gerard Bauza calls $7

*** FLOP *** [4c Tc Js]

Danny_23 sits down
lottabourbon checks
Gerard Bauza checks
Danny_23 adds $53.25
loloPOZZEDu bets $20
lottabourbon calls $20
Gerard Bauza folds

*** TURN *** [4c Tc Js] [Td]

lottabourbon checks
loloPOZZEDu bets $46
lottabourbon calls $46

*** RIVER *** [4c Tc Js Td] [6h]

lottabourbon bets $120.30, and is all in
loloPOZZEDu

Do anything but fold. Do a happy dance.

I think they shove hands that beat you because they don't want you to check behind.. my thinking could be flawed though.. I had a similar hand recently and I folded so I dunno what he had.

Call, I think hes got a KJ. With my luck lately they always show up with JT here though...

if villain is truly retarded I snap call and expect to see some crap like K9, Q9 or89. Sometimes even a Jx hand that doesn't know what to do on the river.

I'd probably check behind on turn, but as played I lean towards folding although I think it's close. I don't know if JQ/JK type hands or busted flush/straight draws make up enough of his range to justify a call. I also dont see many people pushing AI into the agressor from OOP in these situations very often without a hand. I think he probably has Tx and instead of CRing the turn and giving away his hand he instead opted to just call and then push the river.

I would check behind this turn also.

But as played, I have seen this line a LOT lately with missed club draws who check call all the way down, and lead hard on the river when they miss. Especially if this guy is a donk, I wouldn't be surprised if he used that line.

call, if he c/r'ed all in your screwed IMO, this line makes it much harder for you to call, which he wants i think

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

call, if he c/r'ed all in your screwed IMO, this line makes it much harder for you to call, which he wants i think

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I think a lot of donks would use the opposite reasoning.

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Originally Posted by griffey24

I would check behind this turn also.

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why?..

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Originally Posted by jackvance

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Originally Posted by griffey24

I would check behind this turn also.

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why?..

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to avoid getting stacked by 10x and to get more value from weaker hands that wouldn't stack off easily on this board that's getting scary.

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Originally Posted by jackvance

why?..

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Because figuring out where you're at on a board like this is very difficult and a show of weakness on the turn will both keep the pot under control and encourage monsters to just milk you for a modest bet. If your opponent just had a pair on the flop, he has very few outs anyway.

you guys aren't value betting this turn the vast majority of the time against a guy with a vpip of 40?

...

I always thought that you should play your AA fast, so checking the turn is a NO in my book. Over how many hands are the stats of the opposition? If he has winning stats and a VPIP of 40 with +200 hands in the database I'm calling. Otherwise i'm pissed off when I click the fold button.

Lukie why would you fire a second bullet here but not vs a 21/16 tagg?

Since a 10x hand is very much in the laggtard's range won't it be very hard to call a push? And won't we be laying down the best hand a decent % of the time, making this a gross fold to have to make if the tard pulls some crazy move?

Maybe I'm just looking to have too many easy decisions but I like the line that gets me to showdown.

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

Maybe I'm just looking to have too many easy decisions but I like the line that gets me to showdown.

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I like the line that wins me the most money.

It really comes down to how retarded you think this guy is. Particulary with his post-flop play. I explained the reasoning behind a turn check for the person who asked, but bet/call here for me would depend on stuff more important than pre-flop numbers.

i think you are definitely missing value not betting the turn against a 40/12.

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Originally Posted by Massimo

i think you are definitely missing value not betting the turn against a 40/12.

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I think this is bad reasoning. He is a 40/12/2 player which means that he is fairly aggressive for a 40 VPIP guy. I check this turn because this guy could easily have a J or a T. How often is he pushing this river without a T? How often is he calling 3 bets here with a J on a paired board? If he has a J and we check the turn he makes a river bet, if he has a T/set its time to get AI. If he is a weak calling station then this is an easy turn bet, because we figure he will call down with just a J.

well played now press the call button... 40 vpip= nooo credit whatsoever, watch him show up with KK or something here.

I think you shouldve check the turn for pot control but since you didn't, I think its a call here. He did call a rather large bet on the flop so he has either a draw, middle pair or maybe a er of 44's but since the action wasn't raise on the turn, I'm leaning towards rop pair and calling the river expecting to see QJ or KJ

I bet turn as well and call the river. It will be a T sometimes but a bricked FD/ straight draw enough for this to be profitable imo.

Also, how come I never run into you when I play Renton? You play at weird times?

wow checking the turn here seems absolutely disgusting. I need more convincing here folks. His flop snapcall is indicative of a draw or weak pair, and there're tons of draws out. There are about a million turns and rivers im not gonna be thrilled to see.

I called the river and he had the only hand i felt was consistant with all his play up to that point that had me beat, QT.

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

Lukie why would you fire a second bullet here but not vs a 21/16 tagg?

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I'd fire a 2nd bullet here vs a 21/16 tagg too. Most people play way too passively on turns with hands that good the large majority of the time (this is the case here) and miss out on a ton of value.

Plus, how do you get any credit with 2-barrels when you're not even value betting AA here?? That implies that you need trips or better to value bet here. I'm also of the opinion that people don't 2 barrel air nearly enough.

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Since a 10x hand is very much in the laggtard's range won't it be very hard to call a push? And won't we be laying down the best hand a decent % of the time, making this a gross fold to have to make if the tard pulls some crazy move?

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it's a small part of his range. There's a lot of value to be hand from Jx, mid pairs, and any number of straight and flush draws. Plus, a lot of players that are incredibly easy to read might c/c with a marginal made hand or draw and check/raise a ten.

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Maybe I'm just looking to have too many easy decisions but I like the line that gets me to showdown.

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if your goal is to push massive edges and get stacked as little as possible this is fine, but in my opinion you're basically just throwing free money away.

btw, river, *shrug*, a lot more player dependant then betting the turn I think. against some I'd snap call, against others I'd fold (even among players with similar preflop stats). limp/call preflop c/c flop check turn gives away a LOT less info then limp/call pre, c/c flop, c/c turn, shove river does.

Eh, I'd bet the turn with this many draws out.

And as played, shitty spot. Leaning towards a fold though because most people won't bluff a draw like this after we show so much strength by betting the flop/turn. He won't play Jx like this most likely either.

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Originally Posted by Massimo

i think you are definitely missing value not betting the turn against a 40/12.

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I would feel more comfortable betting here against a more passive donk villain.

Aggro donk villain with 40/12/2 is probably more likely than most players to have actually stuck around in this hand, or be in this hand in the first place, with a 10. He is also likely to try and steal any missed draw on the river, if we check behind this turn.

I agree that we're losing value the times we're ahead. But what about the times we're behind? If we check this turn, we're probably facing a river bet of about $17 since villain doesn't think we have much. Instead we're stacking off.

The 10 is as much a scare card for us, at it is for him. So I also don't see how many worse hands are calling a second barrel turn bet, on that kind of board. (this obviously depends on how donkish he is, postflop)

If i had reads that villain is a donk POST flop, and stacks off weakly, I would bet this. Without a good postflop read, I probably check here.

As you move up, you find people mimicking classicly weak lines to extract value. That's what happened here IMO. I don't say that for your sake Renton. I know you know this.

The feigned missed draw is a big part of overall meta these days. You need to know who's capable.

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

As you move up, you find people mimicking classicly weak lines to extract value. That's what happened here IMO. I don't say that for your sake Renton. I know you know this.

The feigned missed draw is a big part of overall meta these days. You need to know who's capable.

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well, obviously i didn't respect the villain in this hand enough to think that he was second leveling. Also i highly doubt he was even after seeing the results. This was a simple case of omg trips im all in.

good points Lukie

I usually find soft games on Party where it's easy to get a crazy image without being crazy and push massive edges a lot without risking my stack.

Not playing tough games makes it easier to get into the habit of waiting for big edges instead of pushing small ones for all they're worth.

For those who want to check the turn, what (non-A) turn card would you continu betting at? I'd personally check if the J paired, maybe if a 9 shows up. I'll often check behind with TP meh K sort of hands, or if the board got really scary with the top card pairing or a flush showing up.. but here I would definately continue. And fold the river when he leads out to not let us check behind.

I mean, if he posted the hand and checke the turn behind and then went to showdown vs AJ/KJ, wouldn't everyone suddenly be saying "omg bet the turn you have AA!"..

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Originally Posted by jackvance

For those who want to check the turn, what (non-A) turn card would you continu betting at? I'd personally check if the J paired, maybe if a 9 shows up. I'll often check behind with TP meh K sort of hands, or if the board got really scary with the top card pairing or a flush showing up.. but here I would definately continue. And fold the river when he leads out to not let us check behind.

I mean, if he posted the hand and checke the turn behind and then went to showdown vs AJ/KJ, wouldn't everyone suddenly be saying "omg bet the turn you have AA!"..

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If the turn was a rag card.. a 2-7, I would likely bet this turn. Any other card, two pair or straights are very possible and i'd likely check through.

For what its worth, I check through a LOT of turns with one pair hands in position.... which is possibly/probably a leak.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jackvance

I mean, if he posted the hand and checke the turn behind and then went to showdown vs AJ/KJ, wouldn't everyone suddenly be saying "omg bet the turn you have AA!"..

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No. It was said before the results were posted.

Basically I think the turn check is pretty neutral ev (compared to betting with AA in a spot like this)... unless you're trying to balance it with a lot of 2-bulleting (which Lukie explained above).

You lose value from ppl who love to chase the turn with draws. However, this will sometimes be tough to deal with when you're forced to either make a big fold or call a large part of your stack when the draw completes on the river (often feeling pot-commited).

Conversely, when you check the turn in position, lots of fishy players will call you down with all kinds of shit (read ***ANY*** pair on the board) if you pot the river when checked to. Furthermore, you get to lots of showdowns - always good for learning about your opponents.

Obv if you're playing a mega-fish who'll call 3 bullets with any pair all this thinking is pointless.

edit : I haven't slept i 36 hrs or so, so if I'm repeating myself ad nauseum plz ignore.

the point is tho that according to what little info i have on this character, he will pay off turn AND river bets with an extremely wide range, since he sucks.

I'm kinda surprised no one mentioned this, but what about if villain was 'trapping' with QQ or KK? Isn't that a small part of his range? I usually don't see 40/12s 3-betting preflop much so I usually include that into their range.

I fire another bullet on the turn and usually call river just to see trips a lot, but I really don't think we can fold given that he's not very solid preflop (could lead to postflop leaks), and the fact that every draw missed.

I'd be even more inclined to call if you 2-barrel a decent amount of the time, because he could peg you for the draw and think there's no way you could call unless you had AcJc or something.

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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

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Originally Posted by jackvance

I mean, if he posted the hand and checke the turn behind and then went to showdown vs AJ/KJ, wouldn't everyone suddenly be saying "omg bet the turn you have AA!"..

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No. It was said before the results were posted.

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It would have avoided the difficult decision of facing the river shove tho