Battling the PF reraiser's

After posting Hand 1 in codereds lag thread, I got some negative feedback. What I am doing here is slowing down the regulars who are tired of me raising them out of most hands. I only do this after being 3bet several times, I am not doing this unless I feel that they are 3 betting me lite. They don't know what to do after I call their flop bets. I will also call any big hand I have and play for the turn, but only against the regulars. This has obviously helped in the short term, but is this spew long term?? I believe all of these villains are 2p2er's...


Hand 1:Villain is 16/12 regular.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($98.50)
BB ($147)
UTG ($128.65)
MP ($75.90)
Hero ($105.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, SB raises to $14, 1 fold, Hero calls $10.

Flop: ($29) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $15, Hero calls $15.

Turn: ($59) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $40, SB folds.

Final Pot: $99

Hand 2: Villain is 22/18 regular.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($98.45)
CO ($132.45)
Button ($178.60)
SB ($133.70)
BB ($79)
UTG ($104.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, CO raises to $14, 3 folds, Hero calls $10.

Flop: ($29.50) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $20, Hero calls $20.

Turn: ($69.50) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($69.50) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $40, CO folds.

Final Pot: $109.50

Hand 3:Villain here is 13/8 regular.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($243.45)
UTG ($26.05)
MP ($98.50)
CO ($57.20)
Hero ($98)
SB ($113.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to $4, SB raises to $12, 1 fold, Hero calls $8.

Flop: ($25) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $15, Hero calls $15.

Turn: ($55) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $35, SB folds.

Final Pot: $90

Hand 4: Villain here is 17/14 regular.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($92.90)
SB ($257.60)
BB ($133.30)
UTG ($106.15)
MP ($86.70)
CO ($24.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to $4, SB calls $3.50, BB raises to $17, Hero calls $13, SB folds.

Flop: ($38) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets $24, Hero calls $24.

Turn: ($86) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $51.9 (All-In), BB folds.

Final Pot: $137.90

They're probably not going to keep letting you get away with this. If you figure out how they're adjusting and stay one step ahead of them, you'll do great. This is easier said than done obviously.

If you were habitually calling with any PP every time you were 3-bet I'd say you're making a mistake, but for the reasons you stated, I like. They're adjusting for your play and your simply readjusting yourself. You need to be doing this occasionally for balance. I'm not a fan of floating OOP like you did in hand 2 though.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

They're probably not going to keep letting you get away with this. If you figure out how they're adjusting and stay one step ahead of them, you'll do great. This is easier said than done obviously.

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Isn't this the big trick these days?? I mean the games are getting tougher, there are less fish, the regulars are better at all levels. The big winners, until there is a poker carve out or legalization, will be the ones who are ahead of the curve.

1) PF I really dont like. If you say they are 3betting you light then you need to make a move postflop to make this profitable as you arent getting the implied odds for a set. If he plays like you would imagine a 16/12 to then calling isnt bad, but I would be playing for set value and definitely getting away on this flop. As played, a turn bet is good assuming he can fold something like AK or maybe even two pair. If he calls and checks to you on a blank river, what do you do?

2) OOP I think this is just bad, these arent the hands we want to be playing in 3bet pots when we arent deep [we dont want to be playing many in general], so as played I would just ditch the flop, there is onyl so much we can do here. On the river, what sort of hands are we getting to fold? KQ, QK, AQ, TT, 77, maybe QJ, etc. I think the vast majority of the time you are betting here you are only folding worse hands and getting called by better ones.

3) How light is a 13/8 going to be 3betting you? REgardless, I dont mind PF or the flop, but on the turn what are we trying to do? This isnt really a move, our hand is likely good here so lets just try to get to the showdown.

4) This one Im not entirely sure about. If we are calling PF [which i dont think is too bad], then I dont really see folding this flop, but the turn puts us in a weird spot. If we check behind and the river is a blank and he pushes, what do we do? At the same time, I dont expect to get value out of this turn push _or_ to fold many [if any] better hands. So honestly, Im not sure what I would do here.

have you considered a 3bb opener?

If you want to play the high-variance "fighting back" style these are all good spots and nice lines to take.

edit : just read Andy's more thorough and detailed (read "better") reply and I agree with most of what he said.

However, what makes me say that Jager's lines are fine is that by the time Jager is betting to "take down" these pots, they're big enough that they merit taking down, rather than looking for greater EV or underrepping of our hand.

What I don't like about a lot of these is that good players know ur range is mostly balaned towards a bluff.
Have you noticed that in hand 2, "the typical float line" that you never ever do this with a made hand? (or barely ever)

Iowa, why can't Jager show up with QQ in hand 2?

Here is some background for this, I am playing a 25/20 game. I have been on a lot of tables lately where I am being 3bet at least once every orbit. The regulars seem more concerned about 3betting me than going after the fish. Again I am only 1 of 2 regulars in these games that has a PFR of 20+. My intention on these hands is I am just looking to stop the light 3 betting. I have no intention of showing any of these hands down. I have chosen the weaker PP's hand because I may also hit my set to bust their AA/KK/QQ.

Hand 2: you really bet the river here with QQ?

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Hand 2: you really bet the river here with QQ?

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villain doesn't know that.

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Originally Posted by Jager

Here is some background for this, I am playing a 25/20 game. I have been on a lot of tables lately where I am being 3bet at least once every orbit. The regulars seem more concerned about 3betting me than going after the fish. Again I am only 1 of 2 regulars in these games that has a PFR of 20+. My intention on these hands is I am just looking to stop the light 3 betting. I have no intention of showing any of these hands down. I have chosen the weaker PP's hand because I may also hit my set to bust their AA/KK/QQ.

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In hands like #3, you are turning a decent hand into a bluff. Calling 3bets with PPs is alright when your opponent has a tight range and you arent over committing yourself and also when you are deep, this really isnt the case in these spots at all. I understand that you are trying to balance that by also making moves with them, its just I think a lot of this si going to be spew more often than not. If you want to start playing back in 3bet pots, try it with hands like SCs where you can take a hand that isnt going to win a showdown and bluff while still not being completely fucked if you are called [assuming this isnt on a dry board where you have no draws]. Also, I really really wouldnt suggest doing this OOP. At the same time, Im not saying that you should never make a move, but Id just rather you didnt waste a decent hand on a bluff [i.e. utilize a hand that still has outs] or just be like me and push dry flops in 3bet pots when you are tilting.

Personally, it really seems to me like you are attempting to play a very lag PF game without thinking much about the postflop game and getting into a lot of trouble because of that. A thread like this is a good start to thinking about the implications but another thing you could do is simply tighten up when they adjust to you and make their light 3betting a bigger mistake.

My response may not be a popular one here, but to beat these games we simply do not need to be doing things like this at the small stakes games. Am I telling you to become a nit? Not by any means as my game itself can attest to, but I just dont think the rewards of fucking around too much in 3bet pots is just not enough and is going to be very high variance and therefore hard to determine whether or not a play is actually profitable.

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Originally Posted by andy-akb

but another thing you could do is simply tighten up when they adjust to you and make their light 3betting a bigger mistake.

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This is where I have been the past few weeks, and not only is it not fun but it starts to diminish other aspects of the game. To some of us these plays look massively -EV but if it works for him I'd rather have him not change it.

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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andy-akb

but another thing you could do is simply tighten up when they adjust to you and make their light 3betting a bigger mistake.

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This is where I have been the past few weeks, and not only is it not fun but it starts to diminish other aspects of the game. To some of us these plays look massively -EV but if it works for him I'd rather have him not change it.

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If you have been "there" for a few weeks, you arent adjusting. If you go from a crazy image and start tightening up, the others players will notice, it just may take them a bit. When they start tightening up, you can loosen up a little, maybe not as much as before but find some middle ground. Im not saying play 25/20 one week and then 18/15 the next, Im saying adjust to the flow of your tables and go from there. These adjustments should be much more fluid. Another point is that it is very hard to determine whether or not these plays are + or - ev because of how high variance they are, so its very hard to know.

Basically I just think that when you are finding yourself feeling like you need to do stuff like this at 100nl, you are going too far with it.

I disagree because 100NL now = 400NL+ of 6 months ago.

Even if these situations are slightly -ev, I make up for that in other hands where I would never have even seen a flop. The tables at stars usually only have 1 fish at the times I am playing, if I can't slow down the 3betting against me I am losing opportunities to isolate the fish. I am beating this game because I play more hands than the Tags/Nits are against the fish, we all know this is true. Instead of the Tags opening up to play with me and the fish postflop, they 3bet me and push the fish out of the pot. I can't tell you how many times I have raised a PP or AJs or KQo in a row and been 3bet all 3 hands and had to fold. So by getting the Tags to stop 3betting me light, I get more shots at the fish HU postflop. This more than makes up for these play's possibly being -ev.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

I disagree because 100NL now = 400NL+ of 6 months ago.

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If 100nl is equal to 400nl from 6 months ago, then neither required plays like this to win.

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Originally Posted by Jager

Even if these situations are slightly -ev, I make up for that in other hands where I would never have even seen a flop. The tables at stars usually only have 1 fish at the times I am playing, if I can't slow down the 3betting against me I am losing opportunities to isolate the fish. I am beating this game because I play more hands than the Tags/Nits are against the fish, we all know this is true. Instead of the Tags opening up to play with me and the fish postflop, they 3bet me and push the fish out of the pot. I can't tell you how many times I have raised a PP or AJs or KQo in a row and been 3bet all 3 hands and had to fold. So by getting the Tags to stop 3betting me light, I get more shots at the fish HU postflop. This more than makes up for these play's possibly being -ev.

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Alrighty man, i guess i dont know why you posted this then if you already knew the answer.

3 is standard

i hate 1 and 2

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

have you considered a 3bb opener?

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QFT

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

have you considered a 3bb opener?

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QFT

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ironic. Guess where i got the idea?

And what advantages does a 3x opener give me?? I have tried it, but I don't seem to get the isolation at $100.

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Originally Posted by Jager

And what advantages does a 3x opener give me?? I have tried it, but I don't seem to get the isolation at $100.

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better implied odds to call a 3-bet

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

I disagree because 100NL now = 400NL+ of 6 months ago.

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not quite...

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Originally Posted by Jager

And what advantages does a 3x opener give me?? I have tried it, but I don't seem to get the isolation at $100.

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why do you need to isolate when your opponents are so mechanical anyway?

To quote fnord, what difference is opening for 4bbs and not 3bbs going to make to the cold calling range of the regulars you play with?

the 3bb opener only works at 2/4 and up

below there is a visible difference in respect

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Originally Posted by Renton

the 3bb opener only works at 2/4 and up

below there is a visible difference in respect

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thats half the point in the current stars game.

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Originally Posted by Warpe

better implied odds to call a 3-bet

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It also costs you less money when you make a weak fold to a 3-bet.

Also, looking at these hands, in at least 2 of them the pot is big enough relative to the money behind that you should consider a range of hands to shove over your opponents 3-bet to punish their automatic follow-through.

Your opponets should be 3-betting then sometimes giving up when called. If they're c-betting every time that's a very exploitable mistake.

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Also, looking at these hands, in at least 2 of them the pot is big enough relative to the money behind that you should consider a range of hands to shove over your opponents 3-bet to punish their automatic follow-through.

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This is something I'd like to think about. how many outs would you say we would need to make it profitable? 6ish?

you don't want to be floating OOP it is a recipe for disaster. I like hand 3 and hand 4 kinda, the other two r spewy, specially the first one.

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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

This is something I'd like to think about. how many outs would you say we would need to make it profitable? 6ish?

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That sort of thinking is going to lead to too tight of a range against a loose/aggressive blind defense.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

This is something I'd like to think about. how many outs would you say we would need to make it profitable? 6ish?

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That sort of thinking is going to lead to too tight of a range against a loose/aggressive blind defense.

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So basically we're looking for a hand that has decent equity when called? Such as in Hand 2-3 like AQ-AK with a club, where you're a real dog to AA. I would think that would be better than a hand like 55 where we are 100% behind here when called with only 2 outs.

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Originally Posted by Jager

Here is some background for this, I am playing a 25/20 game. I have been on a lot of tables lately where I am being 3bet at least once every orbit. The regulars seem more concerned about 3betting me than going after the fish. Again I am only 1 of 2 regulars in these games that has a PFR of 20+. My intention on these hands is I am just looking to stop the light 3 betting. I have no intention of showing any of these hands down. I have chosen the weaker PP's hand because I may also hit my set to bust their AA/KK/QQ.

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Three of the hands you posted are just button blind steals where you got played back at, so the odds are good that they have marginal hands, and you have positional advantage. If you are routinely doing this OOP (Hand 2), that's spew, IMO.

I mean, just look at Hand 2. You're OOP with a weak hand and not enough implied odds to call for a set. The board is a bad one for you, but you continue anyway, give a free card on the turn, and get lucky that a blank hits on the river. This allows you to bluff the river, which could easily get picked off by KJ, A9, TT, etc. that tried to control the pot size. Plus, you'd have to fold a better hand to anyone with the courage to double barrel. If you are able to have any success doing this on a regular basis, it's because your opponents are predictable and bad at playing in position, not because the strategy is good in general.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by Warpe

better implied odds to call a 3-bet

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It also costs you less money when you make a weak fold to a 3-bet.

Also, looking at these hands, in at least 2 of them the pot is big enough relative to the money behind that you should consider a range of hands to shove over your opponents 3-bet to punish their automatic follow-through.

Your opponets should be 3-betting then sometimes giving up when called. If they're c-betting every time that's a very exploitable mistake.

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if you have no intention of calling a 3bet then you could open for 4bbs... im thinking specifically of AJo KQo and maybe JTo but the top two certainly that play horrible versus even a lightish reraise range.