Lay down KK preflop?

Printable View

02-20-2007, 11:00 PM
Galapogos

Lay down KK preflop?

I know I've advocated this before but here is a situation where I would like to know what you guys think.

Say some unknown just sat at the table a few hands ago, buys in full. You just witnessed a hand where he didn't raise preflop. It's between him and some other guy he has position on. Checks all the way to the river which is a Q. Board is not scary, check, check again. New guy shows AQ. Weird.

Okay, next hand you are in SB with KK, this new guy raises (!!!) Everyone folds to you and you reraise. He pushes. Do you call?

Keep in mind he has been at the table for maybe 5 hands and you have only witnessed this one. Do you figure maybe he was just being tricky or a super tight nit?
02-20-2007, 11:15 PM
Fnord

I could fold here, but I'd feel really dirty about it.
02-21-2007, 01:17 AM
bigspenda73

Serisously what is with all the fold KK pf stuff around the forums lately?

I am never ever folding KK pf.

Never.

I don't care if the guy is a 5/1/1 over 10k hands.

Flame away....
02-21-2007, 02:17 AM
taipan168

I'm with bigspenda here. Maybe it comes from being an SNG player, but I can't ever imagine myself folding KK preflop. If opp has AA then I pay him.
02-21-2007, 02:34 AM
NLHE lahooozaher

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Serisously what is with all the fold KK pf stuff around the forums lately?

I am never ever folding KK pf.

Never.

I don't care if the guy is a 5/1/1 over 10k hands.

Flame away....

You don't win as much as you could.

/a not so hot flame

Quote:

I could fold here, but I'd feel really dirty about it.

I've folded KK 5 times preflop and of those 5 the worst was folding to the unknown. It's the only time I've regretted doing so. Of the other 4 times, once somebody had KK, twice somebody had AA, and once somebody didn't show but it had to be aces.
02-21-2007, 02:55 AM
Alexos

Quote:

Originally Posted by taipan168

If opp has AA then I suckout.
02-21-2007, 04:51 AM
Sykedupp

Re: Lay down KK preflop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Lay down KK preflop?

No.

-Chris
02-21-2007, 07:04 AM
Kits

I don't think so.
02-21-2007, 07:14 AM
Renton

whats his position

you don't know enough. Insta call and be good a massive % of the time.
02-21-2007, 08:48 AM
gingerwizard

Id been thinking about this a lot recently:

You have KK in late position or blinds and EP raises. You reraise 3 times his raise and he reraises to 3 times your bet. Do you shove or call? and how do you play the flop? Or do you lay it down?

Having got burned shoving a couple of times I decided to call and that just left me facing the obvious flop shove with a missed K. So I was unsure what to do.

Then, for some reason, while 4 tabling last night, the situation kept happening with other people at my tables and QQvsJJ, QQvsAK, QQvsKK and similar all being shown convinced me that at my buyin level, folding it cannot be correct. (Not unless I guess you have like 10k+ hands with a guy and have seen him flat call repops with JJ-KK and only ever rereraise with AA)
02-21-2007, 08:59 AM
Chopper

lately, i have been in some wierd spots with hands i usually drop to big pf action. hands like AK, QQ, AQ. most of these i will call 3bets with pf, instead of push over, but lately...

i would have been wrong to play so passively. i will 3bet some of these to see if villain pushes, if he does, i may fold (with a better idea that KK/AA are about it for a 4bet), but again, i am often still wrong. you need a SOLID read on someone before you lay down KK pf. and 5 hands does not get you a solid read.

i have lately seen TT, AJ, and 66 all push pf, and have called the TT w/ KK when i was seriously thinking of laying it down.

what a mistake that would have been, huh?

DONT LAY IT DOWN UNLESS YOU ARE 110% SURE ITS AA!! IF YOU ARE ONLY 100% SURE...CALL.
02-21-2007, 09:21 AM
Halv

I've laid it down preflop twice in my 1.5 years of playing poker, both times I had played with the villain enough to know without a shred of doubt that he had KK+. In this situation there isn't enough information to be certain, so I call.
02-21-2007, 11:04 AM
XTR1000

i never laid down KK in 14 months, but were in situations where i wished i could.

i´ve been thinking about this recently. at 25nl 6m im confronted with players with an incredible wide calling range, but therefore a super-nitty raising range. when im 4 tabling i have at least two tables running, where im the only one 3betting more than AA/KK.
02-21-2007, 12:56 PM
Miffed22001

call
not close
hes a relative unknown.
100bbs deeps its pretty much not a decision either without exceptional circumstances.
02-21-2007, 12:57 PM
Silly String

Re: Lay down KK preflop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Okay, next hand you are in SB with KK, this new guy raises (!!!) Everyone folds to you and you reraise. He pushes. Do you call?
. . .
Do you figure maybe he was just being tricky or a super tight nit?

I call the push everytime. This villain obviously does not know how to play poker so I call.
Also it would be more likely that he would slow plays his monsters.
02-21-2007, 04:29 PM
bigspenda73

Yea, this seems more like a hand he doesn't want to have to play postflop. Maybe JJ.
02-21-2007, 06:04 PM
Phantaroth

How about this... if you think there is a big enough chance they have AA to consider folding, it is most likely very minimal... so if you just call and push the flop does whatever chance he folds to a random flop push make it +EV, or does it make it even worse because your giving lesser hands greater value so the probability of him having AA doesn't even matter?
02-21-2007, 07:58 PM
Warpe

I think we should ban folding KK preflop as a thread subject.
02-21-2007, 08:47 PM
Ash256

Only time I mucked KK was when I raised UTG and three players pushed after me. I was against AA, QQ and 88, although two more pushes and it wouldve been a good call.
02-21-2007, 11:43 PM
Galapogos

He was in MP.

I called and he had AA (of course why else would I make this thread?)

The thing is, on Pokerroom no one reraises with less than KK. I'm always saying folding KK preflop can be done but I don't actually do it. The only times I find I am up against less than KK is a couple known regulars. That's it. The site is either very loose call stations or very nitty TAGs.

Maybe folding sounds dumb because everyone is so aggro on all the other sites you guys play on.

And yeah I know we're sick of these folding KK preflop threads but I've won 2 all-ins preflop with it without a suckout ever on Pokerroom (excluding 25bbs player all-ins) That situation loses me money plain and simple.
02-22-2007, 11:07 AM
andy-akb

Is this fullring? Because the last time I played at 5max at ongame, the games were nuts and filled with maniacs [not even semi-decent lags, just asolute maniacs].

Ive folded KK once and it was a 3 way pot where the effective stack was 200bb+ and the action was incredibly fucked up and I had substantial stats on all players involved. There have been a few other times where I have been convinced I should fold but cant bring myself to do it with only 100BBs. I know Ive typed "show me AA" in chat and then seen something random before, but yea, a good portion of the time they still have AA; however, the times they dont have AA and the times you suckout should make up for this [i suck at the math side of things so i wont try to do any ev calcs]. Factor in the tilt from folding KK to see somebody show a bluff or JJ and I dont think I would do it without that rock solid read. Also, the more aggressive I have become [specifically how people react to me] and the games themselves have become, the less I have run into situations where I have to think about folding KK PF [now I have those decisions with AK]. Quite simply, people have wider ranges than KK+ in spots like these at small to mid stakes. At the micros it becomes more of a question, but against an unknown you cant assume they are tight or have any idea what they are doing. Against a regular nit, yea, it becomes more of a question, but against an unknown micro player, call.
02-22-2007, 12:54 PM
Miffed22001

If you are going to fold kk preflop, at least do it like this.

Note: stakes AND stack sizes.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...361&highlight=
02-22-2007, 01:52 PM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

If you are going to fold kk preflop, at least do it like this.

Note: stakes AND stack sizes.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...361&highlight=

I call that in a heartbeat. What happened to the post you _just_ made:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

in games less than 400nl folding Kk preflop with 100bbs stacks is wrong, unless the circumstances are exceptional.
Ive seen about 2 spots on ftr where id fod kk preflop, otherwise i wouldnt. Ive done it once fwiw, and i doubt ill do it again for a long time.

No reads or stats were posted. This was at 50nl with just slightly more than 100BB, I guess I just dont get that at all.
02-22-2007, 07:00 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

If you are going to fold kk preflop, at least do it like this.

Note: stakes AND stack sizes.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...361&highlight=

I call that in a heartbeat. What happened to the post you _just_ made:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

in games less than 400nl folding Kk preflop with 100bbs stacks is wrong, unless the circumstances are exceptional.
Ive seen about 2 spots on ftr where id fod kk preflop, otherwise i wouldnt. Ive done it once fwiw, and i doubt ill do it again for a long time.

No reads or stats were posted. This was at 50nl with just slightly more than 100BB, I guess I just dont get that at all.

he open pushed 200bbs, you think hes kidding?

And trust me when i say its the only time so far ive even considered folding KK preflop.
02-22-2007, 09:10 PM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

he open pushed 200bbs, you think hes kidding?

And trust me when i say its the only time so far ive even considered folding KK preflop.

Well, really he only pushed 150bb effective.
02-23-2007, 02:47 AM
Miffed22001

c'mon renton, people dont go throwing around 200bbs stacks without the goods despite the fact effective stacks for me are 100bbs. Ap is hardly full of fishy 200bbs buy ins either...
02-24-2007, 12:39 AM
Lukie

Re: Lay down KK preflop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I know I've advocated this before but here is a situation where I would like to know what you guys think.

Say some unknown just sat at the table a few hands ago, buys in full. You just witnessed a hand where he didn't raise preflop. It's between him and some other guy he has position on. Checks all the way to the river which is a Q. Board is not scary, check, check again. New guy shows AQ. Weird.

Okay, next hand you are in SB with KK, this new guy raises (!!!) Everyone folds to you and you reraise. He pushes. Do you call?

Keep in mind he has been at the table for maybe 5 hands and you have only witnessed this one. Do you figure maybe he was just being tricky or a super tight nit?

trivially easy call

fwiw, I'm not in the 'never fold KK' crowd, although I honestly can't remember the last time I folded KK pre but that's in a tough, aggressive shorthanded game where people have a clue and don't need AA or KK to go all-in before the flop.