good LAG owning me

I started off good after I moved to 40NL, was up $200 until this LAG set down to my left. His stats turned out to be 75/55/5.. but he wasn't a maniac by any means, this guy knew what he was doing, and it cost me half my profit to find this out. It wasn't just me though, he was stacking people left and right in unimaginable situations. Ie, he was so aggressive that he took lots of $$ from people who had questionable holdings. He quickly ran his stack up to $200-$300 and I don't think it's a coincidence because I just opened the tables to have a look and there he is again sitting on a $600 stack (1500BB!!).

Anyway, what he does.. raise preflop all the time, often minraises though. Seemed to bet ALL THE TIME when people check. I think he was a good handreader too, because when I actually had something he'd find a fold, but I once tried to run a bluff and he correctly called me down with bottom pair :(. He completely threw me off my game. (I just checked PO, his "won when saw flop%" is 73%! He'd bet people out of the pot constantly. And because of this, he gets people to play back at him with weaker holdings.

I was doing great and picking up lots of pots with PFRing (my PFR had increase with 50% since I moved from 20NL to 40NL) so he cramped my style, and he had position on me which made it near impossible to do anything against him. Lateron I switched seats and then it went a lot better and I managed to get some money back. Anyway, some hands:

He was pushing me around like this. I have TP+flush draw but I have to fold right?

** Game ID 1214167735 starting - 2007-02-19 05:04:12
** Je ne crois pas [Hold em] (0.20|0.40 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money
- latrell sitting in seat 1 with $128.75
- tommeke11 sitting in seat 2 with $89.89
- Th0r999 sitting in seat 3 with $5.02 [Dealer]
- Mike1717 sitting in seat 4 with $8.40
- Smeken sitting in seat 5 with $34.15
- HERO sitting in seat 6 with $50.28
Mike1717 posted the small blind - $0.20
Smeken posted the big blind - $0.40
** Dealing card to HERO: Queen of Spades, 9 of Spade
HERO raised - $1.60
latrell called - $1.60
tommeke11 folded
Th0r999 folded
Mike1717 folded
Smeken folded
** Dealing the flop: 2 of Spades, 3 of Spades, Queen of Clubs
HERO bet - $1.90
latrell raised - $4.75
HERO called - $4.75
** Dealing the turn: 8 of Clubs
HERO checked
latrell went all-in - $122.40
HERO folded
latrell mucks:
latrell wins $135.40 from the main pot
End of game 1214167735

I figured, to punish his constant betting when checked to, I'd start c/r. I didn't get the hands to do it with though, just one and it didn't work. Flopped nut straight:
** Game ID 1214162230 starting - 2007-02-19 04:56:16
** Je ne crois pas [Hold em] (0.20|0.40 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money
- latrell sitting in seat 1 with $88.35
- tommeke11 sitting in seat 2 with $85.09
- Mike1717 sitting in seat 4 with $15.00 [Dealer]
- Smeken sitting in seat 5 with $34.80
- HERO sitting in seat 6 with $89.58
Smeken posted the small blind - $0.20
HERO posted the big blind - $0.40
** Dealing card to HERO: Jack of Hearts, 10 of Hearts
latrell raised - $0.80
tommeke11 folded
Mike1717 folded
Smeken folded
HERO called - $0.80
** Dealing the flop: 7 of Spades, 9 of Hearts, 8 of Hearts
HERO checked
latrell bet - $1.80
HERO raised - $5.00
latrell folded
HERO mucks: Jack of Hearts, 10 of Hearts
HERO mucks:
HERO wins $8.30 from the main pot
End of game 1214162230

This one hand was the nail in my coffin. I knew he probably didn't have much, but he ended up rivering 2p on his J4o and taking me for a 150BB+ pot. Should I have read genuine strength in his river bet and folded? What would he have done if he hadn't hit the gin card, the same?
** Game ID 1214163628 starting - 2007-02-19 04:58:54
** Je ne crois pas [Hold em] (0.20|0.40 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money
- latrell sitting in seat 1 with $85.55 [Dealer]
- tommeke11 sitting in seat 2 with $89.39
- Mike1717 sitting in seat 4 with $13.20
- Smeken sitting in seat 5 with $34.80
- HERO sitting in seat 6 with $88.98
tommeke11 posted the small blind - $0.20
Mike1717 posted the big blind - $0.40
** Dealing card to HERO: Jack of Hearts, 10 of Clubs
Smeken folded
HERO raised - $1.60
latrell called - $1.60
tommeke11 folded
Mike1717 folded
** Dealing the flop: 8 of Clubs, 6 of Hearts, Jack of Spades
HERO checked
latrell bet - $1.90
HERO called - $1.90
** Dealing the turn: 3 of Diamonds
HERO checked
latrell bet - $7.60
HERO called - $7.60
** Dealing the river: 4 of Clubs
HERO checked
latrell bet - $22.80
HERO called - $22.80
latrell shows: 4 of Diamonds, Jack of Diamonds
HERO mucks: Jack of Hearts, 10 of Clubs
latrell wins $68.10 from the main pot
End of game 1214163628


Anyway, some general ideas on how to play vs a good LAG like this? Refuse to play without position? Tighten up? Just concede a lot of pots to his aggression? Run a few bluffs now and then? Any ideas welcome.

Off topic, what site is that, I know it's Prima but which?

unibet, so I can cash out directly to my bank account

I think I play these the same, the JTo hand is difficult but I think given his history and stats you have to pay him off here, would have been a sick laydown though.

I play the flopped straight the same too, and the first hand, I'd be tempted to push the flop versus a Lag.

The first hand you should have felted. If he is such an insane lag, any pair + any draw is good enough to felt. In the first hand you should have either re-potted the flop or check-raised him allin on the turn so you could capture more money. The way you played it, the turn is an easy call IMO. Hell, even against normal TAGs I usually strive to get any pair + FD combo all in onthe flop. And don't just check-call down to the river, you want your money in as soon as possible.

On the second hand, there's not much you can do. I personally would not call with TJs oop against a lag. Its just going to be too hard to play out of position without hitting the flop hard. This hand is a reason to mix up some random checkraise bluffs against lags. They are always betting so you can not only capture more money when you yourself are bluffing but can also get them to look you up more often or try to rebluff you if you have checkraised him a few times and you finally do it with a real hand.

On the last hand, you just got badly rivered. If the guy was always firing away on the river, its an easy call. If he is a lag that usually gives up on the turn or river, then you can consider a fold. Lags work that way by beating up on scared, passive players and hitting weird outs and then getting the money in on expensive streets.

Learning to play against lags can be expensive, swingy, and frustrating, but it helps.

I was thinking same thing about hand one. Go to war with him on the flop.

Overall, his style is super effective if his early aggression puts you into passive mode as the stakes increase through the hand.

It's not an optimum style, but something I do in this situation to manage the variance, is tighten up even more. The dynamic this guy brings to the rest of the table can get me tons of action when I hit a big hand so I don't mind camping a little. When I get better at hand reading and have a better feel, I'll try to play more optimum against these guys to win the max but I'm not there yet.

the first hand you have to reraise the flop. your hand is soo strong.

i think the 2nd one you played is fine.

a couple of general things:
change seats on the table or just leave. playing on the wrong side of the lag is very bad.

also, if you insist on sitting at the table, dont try to get in these pots with such bad hands. fold q9 when the lag is behind you, etc

Regarding the first hand, while he was very aggressive, this hand was after the other two and I had been able to observe his play for a bit, and his aggression was mainly betting into weakness and firing multiple barrels, raising was mostly legit (if somewhat thin) as far as I could tell. If he had a draw he would call, not raise then shove. His range here is for the most part AA/KK (I have seen him play those exactly like this, he never 3bet preflop) and sets. On the flop I'm 50% vs overpairs and 30% vs sets, on the turn it's already much worse and I'm only 18% vs a set anymore and 32% vs overpairs. Pot was $13.3 and I have to call $42.33 so I have to call 43%.. meaning I don't have odds at all..

And yeah while it cost me $100, it was very educational and I'm not grieving about it. If anything, it was enlightening how he managed to get the other nitty players at the table to play for stacks with weak holdings this way. For example, he stacked an otherwise very nitty (pre and post flop) guy with JJ on a T-high board!

Oh, and he just finished up his table (stacked everyone) and ended with a clean 20 buyins. Did I mention he is also a big luckbox? Last hand:

** Game ID 1216054881 starting - 2007-02-20 03:16:06
** Oui, J`ai faim [Hold em] (0.20|0.40 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money
- tony_59 sitting in seat 2 with $174.12 [Dealer]
- latrell sitting in seat 3 with $626.25
tony_59 posted the small blind - $0.20
latrell posted the big blind - $0.40
tony_59 raised - $1.40
latrell called - $1.40
** Dealing the flop: 3 of Diamonds, 5 of Hearts, Ace of Hearts
latrell checked
tony_59 bet - $2.80
latrell called - $2.80
** Dealing the turn: 7 of Clubs
latrell checked
tony_59 bet - $15.20
latrell raised - $30.40
tony_59 called - $30.40
** Dealing the river: Queen of Clubs
latrell bet - $69.20
tony_59 went all-in - $139.72
latrell called - $139.72
tony_59 shows: 2 of Spades, 4 of Spades
latrell shows: 6 of Diamonds, 4 of Diamonds
latrell wins $348.34 from the main pot
End of game 1216054881

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vegascoop

a couple of general things:
change seats on the table or just leave. playing on the wrong side of the lag is very bad.

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Yeah I learned my lesson there. I just thought he was a maniac/donk, aka easy money. Next time I'm either changing seats or leaving.

Quote:

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also, if you insist on sitting at the table, dont try to get in these pots with such bad hands. fold q9 when the lag is behind you, etc

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Thing is, I was pretty much dominating the tables I was sitting at after I had figured out how everyone at 40NL was playing, and when he showed up he took over, and I got pissed (bad thing in poker). Normally I don't even raise Q9s, but I knew he'd call with any two, leaving me ahead. (come to think of it, I was probably semi-tilting). Is the best way to deal with this kind of player to just tighten up? That seems really weak to me.. like he already won..

dont let ago get involved

just change seats on the table or find a better one if you cant handle it

and if hes a crazy maniage his range his def bigger than AA/KK or set

A little Lag story:

This afternoon I joined a table of 50NL 5max with 2 dudes having stacks of over 200BB. In under 20 hands playing my usual semi-tight agressive play I was down 2 buy-ins on a real river suckout and a bad beat KK vs 34o.

Point of the matter is I gave out the image of being a poor player and had one of the big stacks (now 250bb deep) call me a donk while i simulated some tilt and started raising 8xbb preflop for a full orbit.

And this is where it got interesting, in under 30 minutes, I had managed to detrone the big stacks and was up net 300BB (400bb with the 100 previously lost). They just payed me off with so many marginal hands, even an 80BB all-in with KK vs KQ.... they just didnt give me any credit yet i always had the goods.

Hence, today I learned the importance of image in your game and how having a good rush of cards in a timely fashion can be great.

These hands look o.k. for the most part.

I'd try to get it all in on the flop in hand 1 since you're almost never a big dogg and a laggtardish player (even one who plays "under control") will show up with a draw of his own here quite a bit.

The J10 hand is very tough. It would depend on what line you'd seen him take earlier but from what you've described he'd rarely had to showdown garbage...

One move that is very effective is c/raising the turn. If he's a hand-reader and can actually fold some reasonable hands, you'll be able to scare him away by using this move.

If he's not prone to floating, just discount this of course...

Also, it will allow you to see more river cards when your AK whiffs the flop!

Good thread. :D

I've experienced the same problem moving up to $50nl. I'm now coming across some good lags which I haven't really had a chance to play against before and they've put me in tough spots on a regular basis. My way of coping has been to tighten up considerably but this thread has given me some other things to think about.........cool.

Hero did this to himself, setting up difficult hands on cheap streets.

** Dealing the flop: 2 of Spades, 3 of Spades, Queen of Clubs
HERO bet - $1.90
latrell raised - $4.75
HERO called - $4.75
** Dealing the turn: 8 of Clubs
HERO checked
latrell went all-in - $122.40



** Dealing the flop: 7 of Spades, 9 of Hearts, 8 of Hearts
HERO checked
latrell bet - $1.80
HERO raised - $5.00
latrell folded



** Dealing the flop: 8 of Clubs, 6 of Hearts, Jack of Spades
HERO checked
latrell bet - $1.90
HERO called - $1.90
** Dealing the turn: 3 of Diamonds
HERO checked
latrell bet - $7.60



Tell???

Another thing, the guy was probably running very hot. From two days ago and yesterday I have him at 125ptBB/100 over 500 hands. Probably not sstainable even for a good LAG? :P No doubt he has skill though, but he catches the cards to match. For example yesterday (I was too tired too play from something else, so I just observed him for a bit) I saw the following hand: he 3bets preflop with J3s, hits bottom pair leads for pot, leads turn for 2/3 pot, catches runner runner flush on the river and shoves, gets a call. Then he gets into a pot again with the same guy, who is now clearly tilting.. our LAG raises the turn with middle pair, tilter calls and leads the river for pot, LAG calls correctly vs a whiffed AK. Very impressive. But something that can be taken advantage of, ie overplay a strong hand when he thinks you might be tilting. Also, I saw him fold plenty now when he didn't catch anything. For example, lead 2 streets, then c/f the river etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

I'd try to get it all in on the flop in hand 1 since you're almost never a big dogg and a laggtardish player (even one who plays "under control") will show up with a draw of his own here quite a bit.

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I personally still think this was a good fold by me. This guy must have correctly pegged me as tilting, which means he isn't raising a draw here because he knows I'll go to war with any decent hand. Including my call, the pot is $13 on the flop with $43 left to play for, it's kinda hard to get it allin here. And when he shoves the turn for almost 4x pot I don't have odds against anything, not even TPGK.

Quote:

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The J10 hand is very tough. It would depend on what line you'd seen him take earlier but from what you've described he'd rarely had to showdown garbage...

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Thing is, I didn't know how he played.. now I know that if he hadn't caught the 4, he probably would have checked the river or atleast bet way less. He'd only do this sort of big bets with overpair/2p+. I guess it's the typical LAG thing.. play aggressive in small pots and make people think you bluff in big pots too, which you don't.

Quote:

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One move that is very effective is c/raising the turn. If he's a hand-reader and can actually fold some reasonable hands, you'll be able to scare him away by using this move.

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Was my plan until he bet pot on the turn, made it awkward to do anything but minraise.. I'd basically turn my hand into a bluff because I had a shitty kicker, ie every time he calls I'm dead.

everything you're saying sounds good to me except for hand 1 (awwww iiiinnnnnnn!!!!!)

the check/raise I'd use with air or a draw (if the lagg stays in his "bet pot" multiple bullet mode) just as much as a monster. If you get called down he'll know the days of fking around with you won't last and he'll know the next time you do it you'll prob have the goods.