4-betting with JJ

Villain is tight, and a little on the passive side (26/10/1.6). However, he does seem to have picked up on the fact that I'm raising a lot, because he seems to be 3-betting me at a higher than normal frequency (although he could just be on a rush). Anyway, I decide to take a stand, not really expecting to be hugely ahead of his range, and expecting him to fold.

Instead he calls, and then I hit the flop pretty hard. My initial instinct is simply to push, given the size of the pot by now. But, looking back on it, I 'm not sure that it was the right move. It's the 4-bet call that has me confused. Other than QQ (which I'm losing my stack to), what could call my flop push, that wouldn't have simply gone all-in preflop? What do you guys think?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($273.10)
Hero ($224.25)
MP ($235)
CO ($296.30)
Button ($114)
SB ($102.10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, CO raises to $18, 3 folds, Hero raises to $60, CO calls $42.

Flop: ($123) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $164.25 (All-In)

He was acting like he had a monster.. you only have the fifth best pokerhand..

unless he's one of those guys that enjoys seeing the flop, no matter the price, you better fold..

he seemed a bit too eager, like you said. You should have seen where he took it.. instead of making the innitial move.

I like just calling this pre. If u had AQ or something then fourbet, but i think theres too much value in flatting JJ here. I probably bet 80-90 on the flop.

Just call preflop. 4-betting JJ (especially here) sucks, unless villian is extremely bad or you have specific history with that villain. Flop push is fine, checking is also fine.

Quote:

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Other than QQ (which I'm losing my stack to), what could call my flop push, that wouldn't have simply gone all-in preflop?

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aa/kk/akc. These hands are never folding on flop.

Regulator: I'm not folding this hand anywhere.

Renton: Yeah, after the fact that's what I was thinking about. AA/KK/AQ may all try something against a c-bet, but not against a push.

He folded and I took it down, hence the second-guessing.

I also thought about a c-r all-in, but I figured a free card was too dangerous with the T completing AK, and a flush draw out there.

Don't fourbet JJ

if you miss that flop you better be checking it too.

IowaSkins: OK

Massimo: I didn't expect to be seeing a flop :(

villain has AK/QQ lots of the time here. Also it'll be 1010 and maybe AQs if he thinks you're completely out of line. Of course he/she could be trapping w AA/KK... But that's unlikely since you like your hand so much that you look like you want to get it all in. SO AA/KK usually shoves over the top.

Vs those hands there's nothing wrong with a push. The pot is big and with all the possible draws AA/KK have a very tough time folding. If villain has AK you're unlikely to get more money anyways.

nh. FWIW villain will put you on AA/KK almost all the time here, esp since both J and Q flopped.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jo

Massimo: I didn't expect to be seeing a flop :(

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This is why JJ is such a bad hand to 4-bet. It is v tough to get weaker hands to pay you off and it is almost impossible to get better hands to fold. Why not 4-bet garbage instead if your intent is to take it down preflop? When you 4-bet JJ you basically throw all the value that hand has (which is a lot) down the drain.