poker gods hate me!!!! what am I doing wrong

Some of this is going to be same song and dance every poker player experiences I know I need to get over it and I know the poker sites are not rigged in anyway. For the past 3 months seems the sites I play, have the always lose button checked beside my name. I don't think I am that bad of a poker play (obviously I am) I just can't seem to win.

I play strong hands like AA,KK,QQ etc, etc along with suited face cards and connectors. I stay way from weak cards and sucker hands like A6 off suite. I play the top strong cards semi aggressive. Medium cards semi passive and once in awhile play week pairs and connectors. there is always that donk maniac that calls and wins, I tried changing up my play style I try a little more passive a little more aggressive again seem to always loose (lately always rivered out) this has been going on 3 months now I know I am on TILT.

Wondering if it is because I am playing lower limit table which attract more maniacs and donks.

here is an example on a .10/.25 nl table I have KK raise $.75 all but 2 fold flop comes down Ts,Jc,4d, raise $1 both call Turn 2c raise $1.50 one finally folds the other all in $5 I study the table nope unless he has TT or JJ but I know he doesn't I have seen the cards he plays. I call River 4h I call to be safe he calls and shows 94 off suite I lose to 3 of a kind.

I kept track of a tourney I played out of 150 hands I had 2 playable and no paired face cards only medium pairs and low suited at one point I had Q2 all the way to Q6 consecutive each one a losing hand.

Thanks for letting me vent. Now here is my situation.

Once a month I can afford about $50 to $75 to deposit so I have been grinding the lower limit table trying to build my bankroll up. With out success since I feel I have not graduated to the larger limit table yet. I do play tourneys and usually come in just have the bubble has been broken or I am the bubble.

Wondering if I should save up a larger deposit and play higher limit table that would eliminate some of the donks out there.

Any help suggested reading any thing to help me get out of my slump..
if any thing I think I need to vent (wife lets me play but does not want to hear it)

Hi and welcome to FTR, it's good to have you here, thanks for delurking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ganther

Wondering if it is because I am playing lower limit table which attract more maniacs and donks.

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It is one of the great fallacies of online poker that you can't win at lower levels because the players are worse. I WANT people to be calling my big preflop raises with crap hands! Sure, it can be very frustrating when some donk calls your big preflop raise with 94 offsuit and cracks your AA with 2 pair, but remember they only hit 2 pair on the flop 2.2% of the time, so the other 97.8% of the time they either fold the flop or pay you off big time when they hit a 972 flop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ganther

here is an example on a .10/.25 nl table I have KK raise $.75 all but 2 fold flop comes down Ts,Jc,4d, raise $1 both call Turn 2c raise $1.50 one finally folds the other all in $5 I study the table nope unless he has TT or JJ but I know he doesn't I have seen the cards he plays. I call River 4h I call to be safe he calls and shows 94 off suite I lose to 3 of a kind.

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I am a crap cash game player but IMO you need to bet more on all streets:
- Preflop, make it at least $1 to go. If you still get lots of callers then make it $1.50.
- As you played preflop, on the flop, assuming you're on a full table and get 6 callers then the pot on the flop is about $4.50-$5. Betting $1 into this pot gives any player who called your preflop raise with KQ or 98 correct odds to draw to their straight. I would bet the pot size on the flop, make it $5 to go. If they all fold, well great - you won a $4.50 pot, that's nice!
- Similarly on the turn, the pot is $6.50 and you bet $1.50, again you should bet about the pot size. As played the call of his all-in is obvious. You just got very unlucky on the river, he hit one of his 5 outs (so he was 10% to win).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ganther

I kept track of a tourney I played out of 150 hands I had 2 playable and no paired face cards only medium pairs and low suited at one point I had Q2 all the way to Q6 consecutive each one a losing hand.

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It's too detailed a strategy to cover now, but once you get shortstacked in tourneys you should be pushing all-in or folding - once you get to these situations there are times when your cards don't matter because you are shoving all-in no matter what you have. Plus, medium pairs can be very playable hands depending on stack sizes, blinds, action in front, reads on the other players etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ganther

Wondering if I should save up a larger deposit and play higher limit table that would eliminate some of the donks out there.

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Sorry to be harsh, but if you can't beat the lower limits, then you won't beat the higher limits. I WANT to play against donks who call too loose, slowplay their strong hands and let me hit my draw for free, call down with bottom pair, etc. You just need to adapt your playing style to take this into account, but these players are very very easy to play against if you just play ABC poker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ganther

Any help suggested reading any thing to help me get out of my slump..
if any thing I think I need to vent (wife lets me play but does not want to hear it)

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The best suggestion I can make is to post some hands and we'll take a look. I usually live in the SNG Tactics forum, if you're playing SNGs feel free to post an entire trimmed tourney. Just be prepared for some friendly but honest feedback, and be willing to take the advice on board. There are many many players (including myself) who started off losing at the lower buyins but have since become winning players because of the advice on these forums.

Good luck and hope to see you around!

Hey Thanks Tiapan for the feed back by the looks of the site I am going to have a lot of reading and hopefully getting a lot of constructive criticism that will greatly improve my game.

I see what you are saying about making my bets 2 small when I have a strong hand I will take that into my next game I play and see how it works.

Again thanks for the great feed back and I will see if I can scrounge up an SNG tourney I played to get some more advice.

Putting in more money to get rid of the donks will only lose you more money. True, there are more maniacs at the lower levels, mostly because that type of play doesn't work so they can never afford to play at the higher levels. There is also the fact that there are moves you could pull on a pro that you couldn't use on a fish because they can't see deep enough into a hand to tell you're pulling a move on them and will probably end up making the choice you don't want them to make. With the $50 to $75 monthly allowance you give yourself, you should be playing .05/.10 nl tables, not .10/.25. Will you see more donks? ...sure. Will you see more maniacs?...you bet! Will you lose your monthly allowance in one day? Probably not, though it is possible.

Study these forums as well as the books suggested in here. Let's take the example you gave...You have KK and raise 3xbb. Not a bad raise, but obviously small enough to generate 2 calls. The value of pocket pairs goes down with each and every person in the pot. 2 is not bad though. Now you get a flop of TJ4 rainbow. A very nice flop for you, yet you only bet $1. I don't know the positions of any players since you did not provide that information (always provide ALL the information you can since every little bit makes a difference) so let's just say your two callers were the blinds. This makes the pot $2.25. You're 94os has about a 20% chance to improve his hand if he thinks you have him beat. If he figures you for something like AQ his pair might actually be ahead. Pocket pairs have a smaller chance of improving. You have 2 cards you would like to see, he has 5, plus the small chance of running cards for a straight, though that might scare him if he figures you for overcards. His $5 all in sounds like a donk move and it may have been. Then again, maybe he figured you for the over cards like I said and didn't want you drawing to them. My philosophy for AA and KK is 3x-5xbb preflop plus 1xbb per limper, followed by a pot size or larger bet on the flop unless it looks dangerous. There are better plays out there for more experienced players, but for me it works enough to make the money. You can also bet the pot preflop. I love doing that too. In EP it will be a somewhat small bet that may attract a few callers. The post-flop pot sized bet is then large and gets everyone out. In LP the pot sized PFR is usually large enough to scare them all out. You basically collect from all the limpers one way or the other which is about what you want with those cards. If anyone re-raises you preflop, then you may want to go all in. This is not a guaranteed win every time, but you will win much more than you will lose.

Watch out playing against maniacs. They can be big profits for you, but they can also wipe out your stack in a single hand. Study them for awhile and see how they are betting. If you have the cards, a big re-raise is a powerful tool. Let them know that they may be able to push some people around, but not you! If you have a tight image at the table, you may even re-raise with nothing in your hand. If they push back though, be prepared to fold. I have found that most people you would label as "maniac" still have something in their hand.

Study the game more. Read as many posts as you can, read the books suggested in this forum, study your own hands. I can't count the number of times when I was beat and I would copy the hand history down to study and see where I went wrong. Be careful labeling people as "maniacs". Part of what I used to consider a maniac, I now consider a better player. In the beginning you are concentrating on pre-flop play. As you get better, you then need to add in post flop play. Look at players like Gus Hansen. He is known for playing pretty much any two cards yet he is a winner. He reads people and he plays very well post flop. Starting out, I played very tight, somewhere around 10%-15% of my hands. Now I play 30%-35% of my hands. Dan Harrington considers this to be between aggressive and super-aggressive. I have a set standard that I play by. I know what I will play, and in what position as well as against what types of players. Sometimes I will make a call that a beginner would call a donk move or a maniac play, when in reality I am looking at the implied odds and not just the pot odds. I am also confident that when my move doesn't work, I can still get out of the hand without too much damage. There are times for pot odds and times for implied odds. I doubled up on two people the other day by doing this. One person because I used implied odds and got his stack with relatively little risk to me, and the next person because he thought I was playing trash and re-raised a marginal hand when I had AKs. Which is another thing, always think about how you are being perceiced at a table. Switch your game up so no one really knows what you are doing.

Grind it out at the lower limits. The potential for the big money isn't there, but the cheap experience definitely is. Learn to first get a feel for the texture of a table, then start honing in on individual players. It literally takes thousands of hands to do this. No book or forum is going to be able to give you that knowledge, only experience. Why pay for that experience where you can lose $15 - $25 in a single hand, when you can get it risking $5 - $10 or less?

Just the thoughts of a relatively new person. Through doing these things though, I have gone from break-even poker to win poker. I started with $100 on UB and due to their bonus I haven't lost a dime. I burned the bonus up a while back and am closing in on $250, at which point I will move up to the $25NL ring. I play poker EVERY day, and I read poker books EVERY day. HOH1 is a GREAT book for beginners. After about 20 thousand hands, HOH2 and Slansky really make sense and take you to another level.

Good luck to you!

I know my last post was long, but I can't help adding another thought or two that I didn't put in there. Slow playing is way over used in lower limits. First of all, don't do it unless you know what you are doing. Secondly, defend against it through bets. Betting gives you an idea of what you are up against. Probe bets, c-bets, and value bets help defend against the slow play. You can save money by spending money if it buys you information that keeps you out of trouble.

Again thanks for the great reply Percival, lots of information and I kind of realize I may be looking at things kind out of scope and wanting to advance to fast in some cases, again thanks for the suggestions and pointing at a different way to look at things. and the suggested read.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ganther

Wondering if I should save up a larger deposit and play higher limit table that would eliminate some of the donks out there.

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God no!

Good post percival...apreciate it.

Pelion I do like your reply I came to that conclusion after reading Taipan and Percival posts, I think if I did that and didn't learn to bet what my hand really is to knock out the limpers or the weaker hands I would end up losing alot more that I would like to.

Once I am over this freaking sinus cold I will try what was suggested as well as what I have been reading in other posts in this forum and on this site. and try to grind my way to a larger bank roll..

Thanks guys for the Replies but the poker gods still hate me I have adopted the suggestions. I am playing .5/.10 table. playing tight and more aggressive than I ussaully play. Still can not make any headway.. here is what I mean these 2 hands are back to back. I realised I should have raised higher but at this table I don't think it would have mattered.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($10.35)
MP1 ($9.20)
MP2 ($8.40)
MP3 ($7.55)
CO ($7.40)
Button ($3.40)
SB ($5.80)
BB ($1.90)
Hero ($6)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
Hero calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.50) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.2, UTG+1 folds, CO raises to $0.6, SB folds, BB folds, Hero raises to $1, CO calls $0.40.

Turn: ($2.50) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($2.50) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.3, CO raises to $2.8, Hero calls $1.50.

Final Pot: $8.10

Results in white below:
Hero has Ks Kd (one pair, kings).
CO has 5d Qd (two pair, queens and fives).
Outcome: CO wins $8.10.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($10.25)
UTG+1 ($9.20)
MP1 ($8.40)
MP2 ($7.55)
MP3 ($11.20)
CO ($3.40)
Button ($5.70)
SB ($1.80)
Hero ($2.10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.2, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.20, MP3 calls $0.20, CO calls $0.20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.3, UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, MP3 calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10.

Flop: ($1.55) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (5 players)
Hero bets $0.4, UTG+1 calls $0.40, MP2 calls $0.40, MP3 calls $0.40, CO folds.

Turn: ($3.15) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $0.3, MP2 raises to $0.6, MP3 calls $0.60, Hero raises to $0.3, UTG+1 calls $0.60, MP2 raises to $2, MP3 calls $1.40, Hero calls $0.50 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $1.10.

River: ($9.95) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets $4.85 (All-In), MP3 folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $14.80

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Kd (one pair, kings).
MP2 has Ah 9d (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: MP2 wins $14.80.

i have never even played ring games properly but KK is worth at least some kind of a raise, surely... especially the second time. Slowplaying AA / KK at my low sng limits and your low ring games cant be the best idea.

The minraise in hand two serves only as a pot sweetener I think. I played a lot of 10 nl lately and I like a big raise with AA and KK. In this example, especially with 3 callers behind the original raiser, I would bump it up to at least .8. Often times you end the hand just then, but thats ok. If you do get callers, make a decent pot sized bet/raise on the flop. If that one gets called, or raised, then you might worry about some sort of set trying to trap you. Depending on the opponent I want to shove my chips on the turn if no scarecard comes, or proceed very cautious. The bottom line is: bet your big pairs harder and opponents won't draw out on you as often. In hand 2 you're very shortstacked, so I would either just shove it pre-flop maybe see a donk call, or raise to about a dollar and shove on the flop.

When you say raising higher wouldn't matter at these stakes, I think you're wrong. Sure, you sometimes get called by crap, even when you go all-in pre-flop (have some hilarious examples there), but most often big raises drive out the worst hands. Here are some examples of big pairs I played:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($10.45)
Hero ($10.35)
UTG ($22.10)
UTG+1 ($13.45)
MP1 ($5.65)
MP2 ($9.85)
MP3 ($3.60)
CO ($9.90)
Button ($4.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 raises to $0.3, 4 folds, Button calls $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.2, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.90, Button folds.

Flop: ($2.85) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.2, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $4.05

(a call on the flop would have been the end for my betting off course..)


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($0.90)
UTG+1 ($9.45)
MP1 ($5.90)
MP2 ($8.75)
Hero ($10.40)
Button ($14.75)
SB ($9.75)
BB ($20.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.5, 2 folds, BB calls $0.40, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: ($1.15) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.1, BB calls $1.10.

Turn: ($3.35) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($3.35) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.4, BB calls $1.40.

Final Pot: $6.15


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($4.50)
CO ($6.25)
Button ($5.80)
SB ($11)
Hero ($10)
UTG ($18)
UTG+1 ($8.45)
MP1 ($13.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.6, UTG+1 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50.

Flop: ($2.45) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets $2.1, UTG+1 folds, CO folds, Button calls $2.10.

Turn: ($6.65) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($6.65) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2, Button raises to $3.1, Hero calls $1.10.

Final Pot: $12.85 (opp. has A7)


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($5.45)
CO ($10.85)
Button ($25.80)
SB ($14.30)
BB ($10.75)
UTG ($10)
UTG+1 ($8)
Hero ($10)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
2 folds, Hero calls $0.10, 2 folds, Button calls $0.10, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.40) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.4, Button calls $0.40, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: ($1.20) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.5, Button raises to $1.5, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $3.20


And yes, it happens to me to (opp. has Q7):

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($4.75)
UTG ($5.10)
UTG+1 ($2.15)
MP1 ($8.05)
Hero ($9.80)
CO ($9.85)
Button ($5.60)
SB ($8.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.5, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.40.

Flop: ($1.15) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $0.9, UTG+1 raises to $1.65, Hero calls $0.75.

Turn: ($4.45) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)

River: ($4.45) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $4.45



This one is nice:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($1.50)
SB ($9.05)
BB ($14.55)
UTG ($1.65)
Hero ($13.85)
MP1 ($10.85)
MP2 ($3.25)
MP3 ($5.80)
CO ($14.10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.4, 1 fold, MP2 (poster) raises to $3.25, 1 fold, CO calls $3.25, Button calls $1.50 (All-In), 2 folds, Hero raises to $13.85, CO calls $10.60.

Flop: ($32.60) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($32.60) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($32.60) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $32.60

(All-inns with A9, K3 (lol) and KK (bugger for him))

Ganther, your second hand is appalling. You are in a big multiway pot and you are going out of your way to have EVERYONE call while putting in the LEAST money.

Big pairs play well in isolation, so achieve isolation. If this takes a 4x pf-bet or a push, it doesn't matter, just achieve it. Do not, ever, go to the flop with 5 callers and then make a tiny bet which gives them all odds to draw out on you (if they haven't already).

ganther:

hand 1 might be okay, if you had a read someone would raise and you´ll get to reraise big. tho i dont like limping KK, this is the kind of play that produces those ugly suckouts. since you are sure, the donks will call and pay for the flop no matter what you should try to get as much money in the pot as possible. remember you´re holding the second best starting hand you can get and you´re far ahead right now.

hand 2 is bad. u dont want to put too much money in the pot, b/c you expect to lose either. again u have the best hand right now (aces would have screamed "HERE!") but big pairs lose value the more opponents you are up against. utg+1 says he has something he likes and he wants to play, so make him pay. in a minraised pot with 5 ppl seeing the flop i´d have called any two with a bit potential given those great odds.

u say raising more wouldn´t have mattered. it would! your kings are ahead and raising here is +EV. that means pot*ev=your cash in the long run.

Hand 1--you should RARELY ever limp KK, only as a change of pace and I wouldn't do it in EP ever! Make your standard PF raise at $10 tables .50, then add .10 for every limper. I make it .50 PF, and if they all fold, okay. On flop, unless an A comes up, I am betting 3/4 pot. As played, you need to bet .50 on flop, and if raised, repop to 3-4 times their raise. I would not check that turn. The river minraise tells you are beat. However, raising PF weeds out Q5, so you are more likely to be ahead on the river if you raise PF.

Hand 2, same thing, minraises suck usually. Bet flop harder, make your flop bets between 2/3 pot and pot normally. With your stack remaining, I would push flop.

Actually, I would have pushed preflop with all the dead money already in........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ganther

Thanks guys for the Replies but the poker gods still hate me I have adopted the suggestions. I am playing .5/.10 table. playing tight and more aggressive than I ussaully play. Still can not make any headway.. here is what I mean these 2 hands are back to back. I realised I should have raised higher but at this table I don't think it would have mattered.

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Two things you need to take into consideration here. First, if you are at a table full of callers no matter how high you bet, you need to either better your post flop play or get out. As I stated earlier, there is no shame in leaving a table that doesn't suit you. Secondly, always pay attention to your table image. If you would have had a high PFR on either of those hands, the players around you would have at least seen that you mean business when you bet and would be less willing to call on future hands.

Let's look at your hands and see where things went poorly...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ganther

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($10.35)
MP1 ($9.20)
MP2 ($8.40)
MP3 ($7.55)
CO ($7.40)
Button ($3.40)
SB ($5.80)
BB ($1.90)
Hero ($6)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
Hero calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.50) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.2, UTG+1 folds, CO raises to $0.6, SB folds, BB folds, Hero raises to $1, CO calls $0.40.

Turn: ($2.50) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($2.50) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.3, CO raises to $2.8, Hero calls $1.50.

Final Pot: $8.10

Results in white below:
Hero has Ks Kd (one pair, kings).
CO has 5d Qd (two pair, queens and fives).
Outcome: CO wins $8.10.

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Let's start with the obvious. You are first to act with KK, and have no idea what anyone behind you has. A .40 raise will get most everyone out of the pot. The CO probably would have folded that hand with you showing strength. If not, then oh well, you'll be able to get your money back from them later when they continue playing crap hands.

Flop comes up QJ3 rainbow and you bet .20 into a .50 pot. You are giving any drawing hand great pot odds. With 5 people in the pot, you can count on someone having hit something. The more people that call, the greater the pot odds for the next person. A pot sized bet or maybe a little more would have been good here. With 4 other players in the pot I may have even bet .75

In reality you bet .20 and were raised .40, making the pot $1.10, then you re-raise only another .40. You either need to call the CO's reraise or make a much bigger reraise to get him out. Some people, once they have a decent amount in the pot, won't get out regardless of how much you raise. Know your player and decide. Have they been known to lay down good hands before? Are they known for chasing?

On the Turn you checked. At this point I am unsure about what to do with the situation you are in. The pot is getting up there, and will be expensive to see where you stand and to take his odds away at the same time by betting 1/2 the pot. Being first to act makes your predicament worse.

On the river, I would have checked since you checked on the Turn. When you were reraised, you were obviously beaten but I can understand the call with those odds and no aces on the board.

Winning a smaller pot in the beginning would have been much better than losing the big one that you did. Look back at my original reply to see how I play AA or KK.

Next hand...

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Originally Posted by Ganther

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($10.25)
UTG+1 ($9.20)
MP1 ($8.40)
MP2 ($7.55)
MP3 ($11.20)
CO ($3.40)
Button ($5.70)
SB ($1.80)
Hero ($2.10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.2, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.20, MP3 calls $0.20, CO calls $0.20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.3, UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, MP3 calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10.

Flop: ($1.55) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (5 players)
Hero bets $0.4, UTG+1 calls $0.40, MP2 calls $0.40, MP3 calls $0.40, CO folds.

Turn: ($3.15) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $0.3, MP2 raises to $0.6, MP3 calls $0.60, Hero raises to $0.3, UTG+1 calls $0.60, MP2 raises to $2, MP3 calls $1.40, Hero calls $0.50 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $1.10.

River: ($9.95) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets $4.85 (All-In), MP3 folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $14.80

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Kd (one pair, kings).
MP2 has Ah 9d (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: MP2 wins $14.80.

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Once again you are dealt KK and this time your position is no better. Action comes to you and it is .20 to call with .95 in the pot. You will be first to act for the rest of the hand. There are 4 people in the hand and you reraise about 10% of the pot. If I had accidentally called the original raiser with nothing but a 72 off suit, I would still be obligated to call your .10 raise. I would have raised the full pot here with your KK. Someone would then have to put in an extra .75 cents to stay in the hand. Chances are, everyone folds and you take it without a flop.

Flop comes up 965 with a flush draw. Decent chance one of the four players is sitting on this flush draw. There are also some straight possibilities out there. You HAVE to bet the pot to get everyone out. Any callers on this flop are scary. You bet about half the pot and get three callers. Every caller gives the next person better pot odds, especially on a drawing hand. What are your chances of your hand getting better? You basically need another K and there are only two left in the deck. With 4 original callers, there may only be one left in the deck. Get these people out of here!!

A 10 comes up on the Turn giving no help to a flush draw, and you check. What happens to a lot of beginners is that they think they have the best hand, they bet it too small, and then get scared when there are callers. There is no reason to think you are beat here. Punish your callers, do NOT give them free cards. What happened though is you got someone that bet - showing strength. Someone raised that bet showing even more strength, and then a caller besides! What message did they send? UTG+1 says "I think I have the best hand and will bet it knowing there is one person behind me and 3 more yet to act." MP2 says "I know there are a lot of people in this hand, and this person just bet, but I am even stronger and will raise that bet with 2 people yet to act and 2 people behind me." MP3 calls...pot odds maybe? Then you throw in a nice little pot sweetener. Who is going to fold to that? You were pot comitted at this point though to push your remaining .50 in.

Every hand tells a story. It was very hard for me in the begining to not assume everyone was bluffing. There are definite bluffers out there, but the truth is that the majority of the players out there bet what they have. Look at the pot odds, look at how many hands people play to get a feel for what their starting requirements are, pay attention to how they bet when they have a great hand and when they have a marginal hand. Follow the rules of ABC poker until you are winning consistently. Get off the tables where everyone calls all the time. At the levels you are playing at, I like to see tables where the majority of the hands are played with 2-4 people in the hand at any given time. Two limpers and the blinds are plenty. And always remember that if you do not know who the fish are at your table, YOU are the fish!

On the bright side, at least you are playing the lower stakes tables now so these losses aren't as much as they would have been otherwise. Keep posting your hands like this and follow the advice people give. It will halp you grow as a poker player.

Guys thanks for the pointers. I know my second hand was very sucky I think I was a little gun shy after the first hand, I realize I didn't play it strong enough I think that is something I am going to have to work on getting the confidence up to match the bet to the cards I have.

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Originally Posted by Percival

Now I play 30%-35% of my hands. Dan Harrington considers this to be between aggressive and super-aggressive.

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Can you play like this and be a winning player? I like to see about 30% of hands when i'm playing, and since i got serious about my poker it's actually starting to win me some money. Implied odds is what i spend a lot of time looking at too, and it seems to be paying off. I'd love to hear more about the way you play percival.

FWIW, the number of hands you can play preflop is DIRECTLY related to how well you play postflop and how good your hand reading skills. The number tossed around for VP$IP is 20% for full ring for a TAG game, while raising about 10% (half of what you play). Position becomes much more important than cards, and as you move up you will find this is even more the case. A whiffed AK out of position against a thinking TAG will cause you to lose sleep....

So, unless you are a postflop god, you shouldn't be seeing 30% of your flops in a FR game. There are some people who can be profitable doing that, but not most people....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djbruxism

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Percival

Now I play 30%-35% of my hands. Dan Harrington considers this to be between aggressive and super-aggressive.

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Can you play like this and be a winning player? I like to see about 30% of hands when i'm playing, and since i got serious about my poker it's actually starting to win me some money. Implied odds is what i spend a lot of time looking at too, and it seems to be paying off. I'd love to hear more about the way you play percival.

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I would agree with what cardsman said about 30% being too much. I don't want to post my strategy as a reply to Ganthers original post since I feel his PF play is what needs to be focused on, but I would be more than happy to start a new post and invite people to critique my view. I am still fairly new to poker and think it would be a great way for myself as well as others to learn. I will have the post written soon.

Percival and others I would like to thank you guys for your help I have started playing a lot more aggressive taking in the suggestions you guys have given. win % has gone up 30+% and most of the I don’t see showdown.

Now if I have high cards I bet my high cards like you guys suggested 5xBB or 4xbb depending on the table plus 1 BB for each limper. I find that most people will fold or if they do call will fold on the turn. If I hit the nuts such as Full House I will slow play it to pad the pot, I have made a couple nice hands against flushes or even AK. I throw in few bluffs in to change it up, most of the bluffs I am winning on the river cause the other guy folds.

I have also had couple bad hands where I made a bad choice, such as 2 pairs K’s and 7’s the other guy had trips but I figured that is going to happen and I have recovered that money already.
I am finding hard to get larger pots when I have been at a table for awhile, when I play everyone tends to fold. (Guess it is better to win small than lose big)

Where can I find more information on implied odds and pot odds and when to use which?

Also what do you guys go by in choosing your table and when to leave the table?

I did have one hand I would like feed back on but I will post that in the right forum.

Again thanks for all your help.

Glad to hear that things are going much better for you! I am going through a divorce right now, (no sympathy needed) so will not be able to do a long post like I had planned on for post flop play. I am looking forward to doing one soon though to both better my play by self analyzation, and through learning from the feedback from others.

In answer to your questions though, a good book for implied odds is David Slansky No Limit Hold 'Em Theory and Practice. The math thrown at you in the book is far deeper than you will ever be able to do at a table, but the theory is sound and will give you a deeper thought process going forward. Here is an example of implied odds at work....

I pissed a person off a few weeks ago because I made a "donk" move, drawing for a straight against the pot odds. The thing was though, I could tell by how she was betting what she had, and how she felt about that hand. I also knew that my straight was hidden, especially if I hit the idiot end of the straight, which is what happened on the river. My implied odds though let me stay in there, because when it came I doubled my stack on her. Again, I don't remember the exact details, but I do remember doing the math afterwards to make sure I had played the way I thought I should, and it came out to having to win that hand 1 time out of five to come out ahead. The pot odds she gave me were less than that, but my odds of hitting the hand were greater, thus implied odds in that hand ruled my decision making. I was able to determine how much money I would need to make off of her (approximately) to make the call worth it if I were to play the same way each time. Straight pot odds would have cost me money, but in the same situation where I had a good feel for how much I would make if I hit, the implied odds had me making a profit. I was playing a one gap suited connector at the time which is why my straight was hidden.

When someone makes a bet, and you think you are beaten, you start to calculate the pot odds to determine what you will need to win if you are able to put them on a hand. If you figure what you will need to catch your card(s) by the river, you have to keep in mind that you will most likely be facing two bets and not just one. I always determine ahead of time if I am going to be willing to face two bets. Being decisive like that, in my opinion, helps you to be more aggressive. A technique that I am currently working on, is a blocking raise...If I know ahead of time that I will be calling a solid bet on the Turn after a solid bet on the Flop, I will sometimes go ahead and raise on the Flop to get a check on the Turn.

Let's say you have 10Js hearts in LP. First to act raises to .25, you call and everyone else folds. The pot now has .65 at a .05/.10 table. Flop comes up AQ 5 with two hearts. Your opponent makes a pot sized bet, (which is perfect to take away your odds) and you put him on either a pair of Aces, or maybe even two pair. If you call here and don't make your card on the Turn, another pot sized bet will be $1.95. On the other hand, if you raise him .65 on the flop, he will be more likely to call and check to you on the Turn giving you a free card. Of course you have to know your opponent and his/her tendancies. If he has TPGK he will probably check on the Turn. If he has two pair you might be facing a re-raise on the flop or an even bigger pot sized bet on the Turn.

THIS IS SOMETHING I AM WORKING ON, and am not advising you to do often. I defintiely welcome anyone elses point of view on something like this as there are numerous players far more advanced than myself. I just see it as a way to play more aggresively. As alwyas, your table image will dictate a lot of what you can and can not do.

As for table selection, I am still working on leaving tables in a timely manner. I defintiely don't like playing tables where PFR's are pointless, and I don't like tables where everyone is afraid to bet if I am in the pot. I can tell you though, that letting people know that you bluff now and again can really shake up a table that is afraid of you.

Every once in a great while (maybe every 10k hands or so), I will be in a position to make a big bluff from the bb. My requirements are that no one has raised the pot, there are numerous limpers, and I have a crap hand, no drawing hand, no face cards etc...I will then bet the pot or more, which is fairly high with all the limpers. Whoever stays has a pretty good hand. Here is what happened...

I was in the bb with 92 off suit and there were 6 people in the pot and no raises. When the action came to me I raised .75 cents. One person called while everyone else folded. The flop came up something like 359 rainbow. I don't remember the exact details, but I had top pair, and nothing dangerous looking. The only person at the table had a stack of about $2.25 so I bet $2. He pushed and I called. I don't remember the rest of the cards but I ended up winning the hand because he had AK suited. Was I lucky? Hell yes I was! But it was a perfect bluff, and he made a donk move by calling when I didn't give him the proper odds. Had a face card come on the flop I would have checked and either folded to a good raise, or re-raised all in to a probe, or half pot sized bet. HAHA, funny story and some people will like it while others will say it was stupid. Here is my point though. After that hand, I got several callers every time I raised. They all saw my hand since he pushed all in so they knew I had bluffed. I had played tight as hell before that (which was important to the bluff working in the first place) but it didn't matter. I had to show down about 3-4 strong hands after that to prove I wasn't always bluffing. A strong hand like AA or KK is great when you are against one person, but against 3-4 people in the pot, it is bad. The hands I did show down though, yielded some nice profits.

Good look as you continue to grow!

TL;DR, I will ctch up later, from what I can see so far, there is a problem not being addressed

Percival= Carpel Tunnel, wow dude, you have alot to say. Nice to see some effort put into responses. You should play more poker, then youwill see the reason everyone posts much less. LOL

all in fun :lol:


Ok, I read it, Nice posts. Ganther, in your third post you claim

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"Thanks guys for the Replies but the poker gods still hate me I have adopted the suggestions."

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You didn't. don't glaze over these suggestions. Get post its, put them on your monitor, You need to re read these a hundred times to learn them. You can't just read something once and know it and use it under these conditions, you need to play poker, when you lose a bad hand or get bad beat, go over the post its. Did you follow everything it says, good, then your playing right. If not, play right.

Keep in mind, AA is never 100% to win pre flop. It will get beat, It doesn't matter, get stacks, get laid. kick ass

Thanks again Percival for another great post.. and Trainer_jyms I think in away you are right I kind of skimmed over the first few suggestions then it set in after that and I have gone over the posts a couple of times, I like the post it note idea. Btw I like your picture very nice.

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Originally Posted by Ganther

Btw I like your picture very nice.

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NICE??NICE?? Thin redheaded bi-sexual women are the cocain of my life, I live for them, I breath for them, there is nothing more pleasing to the eye.

I don't think it was more than 3 weeks ago that I asked "why not limp in occasionally with AA?" and I was torn to shreds and learned a lesson...lesson proved well...last night I was in 2 Sng's at the same time and in one got AA...BB was 100 and I believe I was on the button...I think everyone still at the table (5 or 6?) called the BB so I pushed...even if everyone folded I was getting a huge stack...got one caller with a mediocre hand and I got a nice stack.

30 seconds later on another table the guy to my left raises the BB one time...from 100 to 200...everyone folds but me...I had pretty bad cards...maybe Q8s...Q8something comes on the flop...and now he pushes...he had AA...if he had bet 4 times, 5 times, 8 times the BB I would have folded for sure and instead he was gone.

I won both SNG's because of those hands...

Yeah, I had a straight vs a limped AA last night after he allowed me to play QTs. Flop 9JJ, turn 8, river... J. Bollocks.

The only time I advocate slow playing AA, or AK (sorry, but I never slow play KK) is if I am the button or one off the button and everyone has folded to me. I may at that time raise 1-2x bb, followed by a pot or larger sized bet on the flop. Even then I am only about 20% likely to slow play.

How odd. I'll always bet all of the above on the button because I can't face allowing the blinds to see the flop with any two. Also, a button raise looks more like a steal so you're more likely to be called (not to mention that fish who already "have money on the table" in the blinds are m ore likely to call as well).