100NL 6m AK in rr pot

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($99.50)
UTG ($107.25)
MP ($102.35)
CO ($43.70)
Button ($80.55)
SB ($288.10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
UTG calls $1, MP raises to $5, 2 folds, SB calls $4.50, Hero raises to $16, UTG folds, MP calls $11, SB calls $11.

Flop: ($49) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero ???

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Both Villians are unknown, as I've only recently began playing 100NL again.

Is the best line to bet 2/3rd pot and call a push from either opponent?

Raise bigger preflop, make it $20 at least, if not $24 or so.

Bet 2/3's or 3/4's pot on flop. Get it all in, and hope that somebody isn't free-rolling you with AK diamonds, or already has you beat with AT/A8/TT/88 type hands.

Pretty standard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Raise bigger preflop, make it $20 at least, if not $24 or so.

Bet 2/3's or 3/4's pot on flop. Get it all in, and hope that somebody isn't free-rolling you with AK diamonds, or already has you beat with AT/A8/TT/88 type hands.

Pretty standard.

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Agreed. If you have one PFRer 5x and a caller, you need to raise at least 4 times the original raise. In this case I'd raise even more because I don't necessarily want to see a flop without a made hand.
Otherwise, I'd bet 3/4 to full pot and be ready to get it all in as long as you have less than 120BB effective stacks.

I agree on pf, but on the flop I'd c/r ai, or prob just openly move all in because I think these plays get the same or more value as a standard bet but might be better for metagame.

UG - How'd you come up with ~$20 preflop or $24? 4x original raiser? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand ALL the good it does. Gives MP bad set value odds? Scares away hands with good implied odds?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmind

UG - How'd you come up with ~$20 preflop or $24? 4x original raiser? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand ALL the good it does. Gives MP bad set value odds? Scares away hands with good implied odds?

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Here's what I just wrote in another thread, I think it applies to what you're asking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ultimate George

And FWIW, I try to make my re-raises 3.5x's whatever they raised. If there is a caller in-between it usually goes to 4.5x's or 5x's whatever the original raise was. Anything less and you're giving your opponent better odds to call......anything more and you'll only blow out hands preflop that aren't kicking your ass already.

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I think that sums it up. It's about pot odds preflop and implied odds postflop. You raise to $20 or $24 and maybe you take it down right there....or maybe you get the original raiser to call but the SB will (most likely) fold. You only raise to $16 and now it's a little easier for original raiser to call......and for only $11 more the SB probably tags along with *anything* there.

It's not a huge thing, and I can't back this up with any math to show you why it's better.....but I've definitely noticed that 3.5-4x, adding another 'x' with a limper in between, just works better.

Awesome, thanks for the explanation. Keep up the good work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benny999

I agree on pf, but on the flop I'd c/r ai, or prob just openly move all in because I think these plays get the same or more value as a standard bet but might be better for metagame.

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c/r this board sucks. what happens if everyone checks behind and a third diamond hits on the turn? or a 5 hits on the turn and now 555 is the winner?

open-push is okay sometimes, but I don't think this is one of those times as played. only hands that beat us will call usually, only hands that we beat fold...

now if we raise this to $20 or $24 and get two callers that's exactly how I'd play it... EDIT: Sometimes :)

alright, well here's more about why I like these plays more than a standard (half-stack) type bet...

if someone has QQ or something I think an open push will actually look less scary than a standard bet. and if everyone folds, you end up looking like a donk and leave them thinking how they wussed out last time you went all in.

and c/r doesn't suck as bad as u made it out since we're likely wa/wb, ie a free card isn't a big deal. and a lot of ppl stab when checked to (at least on UB, I don't play much on stars).
it also under reps the hand, and later if you want to use pot control with KK oop on an ace high board then this helps (if anyone remembers).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmind

UG - How'd you come up with ~$20 preflop or $24? 4x original raiser? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand ALL the good it does. Gives MP bad set value odds? Scares away hands with good implied odds?

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If you're interested in the math part...

In this hand there is already $11 in the pot with action to hero. He has to call the $5, making the pot $16. His raise (of $11) to $16 means villain only has to call $11, into a $27 pot, offering 2.5:1.

If "standard" is a PSB then the total bet would need to be the call, $5, plus the pot, now $16, for a total raise of $21. This is offering 2:1 to the first villain ($16 into $32).

bet, call an allin. reraise bigger pre and pushing flop works too.

thanks swiggidy!