KK. flop of 557

I just joined the table so don't know much about my opponents.

Seat 1: Hero [KC,KH] ($24.60 in chips)
Seat 3: RF332 ($5.35 in chips)
Seat 4: Snorre26 ($25.15 in chips)
Seat 5: pepoxx ($30.40 in chips)
Seat 6: Pummi81 ($102.30 in chips)
Seat 7: baconsarny ($56.60 in chips)
Seat 8: Hannuu ($37.15 in chips)
Seat 9: SeeYa2006 ($45.70 in chips)
Seat 10: Iliamara ($21.40 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Snorre26 posts blind ($0.15), pepoxx posts blind ($0.25).

PRE-FLOP
Pummi81 folds, baconsarny calls $0.25, Hannuu folds, SeeYa2006 folds, Iliamara folds, Hero bets $1.25, RF332 folds, Snorre26 folds, pepoxx calls $1, baconsarny folds.

FLOP [board cards 5D,7D,5S ]
pepoxx checks, Hero bets $2.30, pepoxx calls $2.30.

TURN [board cards 5D,7D,5S,3C ]
pepoxx checks, Hero bets $5, pepoxx bets $10, Hero calls $5.

RIVER [board cards 5D,7D,5S,3C,4H ]
pepoxx bets $13, Hero calls $11.05 and is all-in.

SHOWDOWN
pepoxx shows [ 6S,5H ]
Hero mucks cards [ KC,KH ]
pepoxx wins $1.95, pepoxx wins $49.10.
SUMMARY
Dealer: RF332
Pot: $51.55, (including rake: $0.50)
Hero, loses $24.60
RF332, loses $0
Snorre26, loses $0.15
pepoxx, bets $26.55, collects $51.05, net $24.50
Pummi81, loses $0
baconsarny, loses $0.25
Hannuu, loses $0
SeeYa2006, loses $0
Iliamara, loses $0

what hand can i put him on here? 77? it's a lot more likely that he has 88-QQ. TT-QQ being very realistic possibilities. i can't really fold the river can i? i'd have to put him on 5x or 77 and most of the time he doesn't have it. so i should call right?

You have to put $13 into a ~$40 pot, I say call and cry when he shows A5, or (more likely) laugh when he shows A7.

My line of reasoning would go like this... I'm no master, just the way I would think thru it.

OK I have two pair, who am I playing against.. would this guy be dumb enough to call my pfr with 5X or 64 or 75? If you don't have a read, I usually assume that he would. Now how many ways are you beaten? boat, straight, trips, AAXX etc.. you're beaten a lot of ways, now what was the betting like?

I like the turn bet but I would fold to the raise. I would definitely fold the river. There are too many scary hands that dominate your 2p. Kings are pretty weak here. My main rule is I don't make big bets unless I'm very confident I can win. Playing the guessing game of the pre-flop play (i.e. why would he call my huge bet?), which essentially ignores the card on the board, usually gets me in trouble.

I play tight, and if I don't feel good being aggressive post-flop, I don't call big bets.

What was your read on this guy?

no reads on this guy. this is my 4th hand at the table and i hadn't been watching. i folded the 1st 3 hands and was busy setting up another 3 tables to play on. didn't have any pokersoftware running.

folding the turn is difficult because you are getting very good odds and he could easily have A7 or an overpair. if he is loose enough to call with 5x then he's loose enough to call with A7.
the only hand that a decent player could have here, that has me beat, is 55 or 77 IMO. and even then he has to be a bit loose.

how can you fold the river with such great odds. i'm getting 3+to1. he could very easily have JJ here.

i check the turn. also, i don't think an overpair takes villain's line as often as 5x or a boat does. c/c, c/min-raise turn is THE monster line.

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

no reads on this guy.

folding the turn is difficult because you are getting very good odds and he could easily have A7 or an overpair. if he is loose enough to call with 5x then he's loose enough to call with A7.
the only hand that a decent player could have here, that has me beat, is 55 or 77 IMO. and even then he has to be a bit loose.

how can you fold the river with such great odds. i'm getting 3+to1. he could very easily have JJ here.

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My whole tip is, you don't know if he's a decent player yet. Pot odds are one thing, but not the only thing. When I start using odds as my only decision maker, I usually get my ass handed to me by some lucky catch. That board is just screaming boat or straight, and without a read I fold to the river bet.

I fold the turn.

i stack off here 1000% of the time, not close

I don't.

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Originally Posted by Renton

i stack off here 1000% of the time, not close

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can you explain yourself renton

also, the players at 25NL at pokerroom are generally very weak. even though he has shown massive strength. i think the odds i am getting are good enough here to call. the fact that he called my pf raise with 65o on the SB show the kind of weak play you find at pokerroom at these limits.
i think this same player would be happy going allin in this spot with A7. although he probably wouldn't play it like this. i think he would definitely stack off here with QQ and he might even play it like this with any overpair to the board.
if you add in the fact that i'm getting 3to1 on the river - how can i fold?

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

i check the turn. also, i don't think an overpair takes villain's line as often as 5x or a boat does. c/c, c/min-raise turn is THE monster line.

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You can't check this turn just because "he might be going for a c/c, c/mr" there is way too much value in betting.

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Originally Posted by freechus9

I fold the turn.

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Can't fold an overpair of KK on this board ever for just a minraise. You have to be absofreakinglutely certain your beat to do so.

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

i stack off here 1000% of the time, not close

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can you explain yourself renton

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1. I stack off fairly easily. Its a habit and a known weakness of mine.

2. Its 25nl, and we have KK. You could probably solidly beat 25nl without EVER folding overpairs of KK+ except for in extremely rare circumstances.

3. Villain didn't limpcall, he coldcalled. This means that we can more heavily weight his range towards higher cards than towards small pairs and suited connectors.

4. I player with whom we have no read is often playing 88-QQ like this.

5. We're getting extremely good pot odds on every street. In a way, if villain has a 5 or flopped a boat (THE ONLY TWO HANDS THAT BEAT US, we practically have the 3rd nuts) he actually played this quite well vs us, because its almost impossible for us to fold the way hes structured the betting.

6. We aren't deep.

Pokerroom's a different beast sometimes it seems. These guys will call with anything preflop, whether it's a raise or a reraise or what. As long as their hand is know as one you could make money with.

They also respect paired boards and flush boards. If you get action on a paired board, your overpair is beat.

Of course this is a generalization but against an unknown there are certain assumptions I make that have helped me here. The game is horrendous here, I don't think Party was ever this bad. An example of preflop insanity is a few days ago I had AA. Someone raised preflop I reraised he called of course and the flop is A67. He raises I reraise and he calls. Turn is an 8. We get all in he had 59o. Freak, I know but this preflop idiocy happens with more frequency than other sites.

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Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

i check the turn. also, i don't think an overpair takes villain's line as often as 5x or a boat does. c/c, c/min-raise turn is THE monster line.

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You can't check this turn just because "he might be going for a c/c, c/mr" there is way too much value in betting.

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that's obviously not my reason for checking. it's not just b/c i'm afraid to get c/r'd. i don't like giving my whole stack away with overpairs. i don't mind giving them a good chunk of my stack, but i like to see a showdown and not go broke or be forced to either fold or call and pray. i may lose some value in checking the turn, but there's also some value to be had on the river against weaker hands (Plus getting a showdown and not losing as much to a monster).

i think you gain way more ev in betting the turn than the ev you gain in underrepping your hand and controlling the pot by checking.

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

Pokerroom's a different beast sometimes it seems. These guys will call with anything preflop, whether it's a raise or a reraise or what. As long as their hand is know as one you could make money with.

They also respect paired boards and flush boards. If you get action on a paired board, your overpair is beat.

Of course this is a generalization but against an unknown there are certain assumptions I make that have helped me here. The game is horrendous here, I don't think Party was ever this bad. An example of preflop insanity is a few days ago I had AA. Someone raised preflop I reraised he called of course and the flop is A67. He raises I reraise and he calls. Turn is an 8. We get all in he had 59o. Freak, I know but this preflop idiocy happens with more frequency than other sites.

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ah good. there are people that agree with me. i thought that pokerroom had weaker than usual play.
i always wonder why players assume that a call of an UTG raise at $25NL shows any strength at all. at somewhere like pokerstars they might know what position is, but at pokerroom they definitely do not. 70%+ of the players anyway.

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They also respect paired boards and flush boards. If you get action on a paired board, your overpair is beat.

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i don't know how true this is.
but if a player is willing to call a raise with 56o i don't think they give a paired board that much respect. they do fold easily to cbets though usually. but he could so easily have 88+. at $25NL i assume that the play of unknown's is extremely weak. and usually it is.

also, although the pf is horrible. the postflop play is good.

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

also, although the pf is horrible. the postflop play is good.

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is this about the hand in question?