Bluffs on the flop: my approach. (longish post)

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12-26-2006, 01:46 PM
Jupit3r

Bluffs on the flop: my approach. (longish post)

A short while back when I started playing poker I bluffed a lot. After some time I noticed I lost quite a lot due to my poor bluffing, so I tried to cut it to the minimum. Then I found FTR, bought Theory of Poker and NL: T&P, and started bluffing a lot again (it's my second nature). Maybe even a bit too much, but I do it so much better now!

Anyways. I'm going to tell you in what situations I usually bluff (I'm playing mostly 10NL) and I'd like you to comment on it and point out my mistakes. Of course it varies depending on the other ppl in the pot and the board but this is how it usually goes...

Situation 1:
I'm the PF bettor and get 1-3 calls, I'm in position.
Villain(s) check.

If I have less than 8 apparent outs, I bet 1/2 pot unless the board has possible flush or straight draws, in which case I bet 3/4 pot. I fold to a re-raise. With 8 or more outs I check because I have a strong possibility to make a top hand with the free card and I don't have to suffer the consequenses of a possible c/r.

Situation 2:
I limp PF along with 1-3 people, I'm in position.
Villain(s) check.

This time I do the same as in situation 1, except I don't pure bluff. I semi-bluff with hypothetical 5-7 outs (ie. low to middle pair or 2 over cards).
I still check with straight or flush draws.

Situation 3:
I limp, call a raise or raise PF, I'm OOP.

With 8+ outs I sometimes make a smallish blocking bet against 2 or more villains heavily depending on their aggression level. Against a single opponent I tend to check hoping that he doesn't raise enough to ruin my odds or that he checks.

With less than 8 outs I don't bluff against more than one villain. And I semi-bluff with 5-7 outs against a single villain if I have a strong "hunch" he didn't hit (depending on the board and PF action).
__________________

Anyways, here was 3 common flop situations in which I might bluff. I've done some programming in c++ and python and I have to make these "programs" for myself to keep in line. First I was going to write about more than just the flop but the post would've been an essay then. Also, I want to repeat that this is what I usually do in these 3 simple situations. It is easy for me to make these strict rules for myself and then bend them depending on the situation rather than improvise every situation from scratch.

Any comments? I'm sure you can find some things wrong in this.

EDIT: grammar. Duh, wrong forum. Was gonna post it on the strategy section. Move it please.
12-26-2006, 03:45 PM
zook

{moved from NLHE Hand Histories}
12-26-2006, 04:23 PM
Rondavu

You have the right idea. I would extend your "I don't bluff with more than 8 outs" line. Instead, do so against people who fold too much. I would also say don't bluff with less than 7 outs against a calling station. There's too much value to be had with a made hand against this opponent. Since you're at 10NL, sometimes you'll be at a 6-max with 3-4 bad calling stations. In this case I barely ever raise, and almost never bluff after the flop.

The rabbit hole goes deeper.
12-26-2006, 04:35 PM
zook

Re: Bluffs on the flop: my approach. (longish post)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupit3r

Situation 1:
I'm the PF bettor and get 1-3 calls, I'm in position.
Villain(s) check.

If I have less than 8 apparent outs, I bet 1/2 pot unless the board has possible flush or straight draws, in which case I bet 3/4 pot. I fold to a re-raise. With 8 or more outs I check because I have a strong possibility to make a top hand with the free card and I don't have to suffer the consequenses of a possible c/r.

If you're the pre-flop raiser with position on one opponent, you should almost always c-bet the flop when checked to. Against two opponents, only slightly less, maybe with three straights or flushes on the board. Against three opponents, slightly less. With lots of outs, you should definitely bet, to build the pot when one of your outs hits (or to take it down without having to draw). This changes with reads of course (i.e. against calling stations, lower your c-bet frequency significantly, against nits, increase it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupit3r

Situation 2:
I limp PF along with 1-3 people, I'm in position.
Villain(s) check.

This time I do the same as in situation 1, except I don't pure bluff. I semi-bluff with hypothetical 5-7 outs (ie. low to middle pair or 2 over cards). I still check with straight or flush draws.

I think you can occasionally take stabs here with "pure bluffs" but it's read-dependent. Again, I think you should bet your 8+ draw hands in this situation, esp. because it's an unraised pot so you'll have trouble winning much money if you don't and your draw hits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupit3r

Situation 3:
I limp, call a raise...

I would try to avoid this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupit3r

...or raise PF, I'm OOP.

With 8+ outs I sometimes make a smallish blocking bet against 2 or more villains heavily depending on their aggression level. Against a single opponent I tend to check hoping that he doesn't raise enough to ruin my odds or that he checks.

With less than 8 outs I don't bluff against more than one villain. And I semi-bluff with 5-7 outs against a single villain if I have a strong "hunch" he didn't hit (depending on the board and PF action).

Again, you should usually be c-betting when you're the pre-flop raiser against only one opponent. It's important to mix in checks with good hands occasionally for balance, but don't change your bet size significantly with different kinds of hands. And play strong draws and made hands the same way. Against two or more opponents, oop, you should be checking a lot when you don't hit the flop, so this part of your strategy ("With less than 8 outs I don't bluff against more than one villain") is sound.
12-26-2006, 05:18 PM
Jupit3r

Thanks guys. Zook, thanks for great reply. Now when I think of it, it really makes sense to bet my strong draws. How much should I bet from position? ~1/2 pot?

Btw...

Quote:

Jupit3r wrote:

Quote:

Situation 3:
I limp, call a raise...

I would try to avoid this.

It should've been "I limp or call a raise...". :cool: I usually fold the hands I'm limping with to a raise. Unless it's close to my raising hands and the raiser is loose. Except pocket pairs... I tend to limp with small pocket pairs and call a raise if it's gonna be lucrative enough if I hit my set.
12-26-2006, 09:06 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

If I have less than 8 apparent outs, I bet 1/2 pot unless the board has possible flush or straight draws, in which case I bet 3/4 pot.

i dont get this. If i have Ace high and i think its the best hand, i bet, no matter what the board is. That bet doesnt change whether i have ace high or AA in the pocket, if i think its the best hand i bet 3/4 pot.
I dont vary my bet sizes for value unless i need to, variation comes from checking behind sometimes with a pair where i might usually bet and betting draws and checking draws when it suits.
12-26-2006, 10:01 PM
zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupit3r

Now when I think of it, it really makes sense to bet my strong draws. How much should I bet from position? ~1/2 pot?

All my flop bets are usually 2/3-3/4 pot, sometimes adjusted upwards based on a read (I have a strong hand and villain will pay to chase draws, I'm bluffing and villain is weak/tight, etc.).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupit3r

I tend to limp with small pocket pairs and call a raise if it's gonna be lucrative enough if I hit my set.

This is fine. At higher limits it can be a dead-giveaway, but at 10NL you should be fine.
12-27-2006, 05:09 AM
Jupit3r

Quote:

i dont get this. If i have Ace high and i think its the best hand, i bet, no matter what the board is. That bet doesnt change whether i have ace high or AA in the pocket, if i think its the best hand i bet 3/4 pot.
I dont vary my bet sizes for value unless i need to, variation comes from checking behind sometimes with a pair where i might usually bet and betting draws and checking draws when it suits.

Ok I get this now and will integrate it to my game. But what about if I completely missed the flop (no draws for me, no high card)? Wouldn't it be better to bet a bit less, when there's no hostile draws on the board and you think it will be enough to chase them away?

Damn... this post has really been useful. I actually feel like I'm a donk, and why didn't I think of these (simple) things myself. :oops:
12-27-2006, 01:20 PM
mixchange

Quote:

Ok I get this now and will integrate it to my game. But what about if I completely missed the flop (no draws for me, no high card)? Wouldn't it be better to bet a bit less, when there's no hostile draws on the board and you think it will be enough to chase them away?

Damn... this post has really been useful. I actually feel like I'm a donk, and why didn't I think of these (simple) things myself. :oops:

Bet the flop with a cbet anyway unless a card came that you put your opponent on (e.g. you raised with j10s, he called, ace hits and caller has shown Ax a few times). However, an ace coming is frequently the cbet'ers dream. Just experiment and observe. Remember you need a LARGE hand history to base this off of. Maybe try to keep a record of your cbets, which worked and which didnt.

the fun part about all this cbetting is that it gives you business when you do have a hand. It's funny how someone will fold repeatedly to your cbets, then get tired of it and play back at you when you hit your set.

don't feel bad about feeling like a donk, I wasn't calculating pot odds constantly, betting enough, or thinking about my opponents hand nearly enough until I began reading here.
12-27-2006, 03:54 PM
Jupit3r

I now c-bet nearly everytime I raise PF and I steal a lot of blinds. I've also learned to isolate weak players when I'm in LP. This all seems to be working almost too good. Sometimes I run into a bit better player who knows how to defend against c-bet (ie. c/r) and I stop bluffing him. I guess it's working so good because of the micro 10NL level.

Miffed's reply was interestingly very useful... I actually almost never considered my A high as the best hand (or at least didn't act accordingly), not even from LP, which it usually of course is when checked down. Strange.
12-27-2006, 04:52 PM
mixchange

Good work. One thing to remember is if you encounter someone who has your style figured out, don't be afraid to move to a new table.
12-27-2006, 06:35 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupit3r

Quote:

i dont get this. If i have Ace high and i think its the best hand, i bet, no matter what the board is. That bet doesnt change whether i have ace high or AA in the pocket, if i think its the best hand i bet 3/4 pot.
I dont vary my bet sizes for value unless i need to, variation comes from checking behind sometimes with a pair where i might usually bet and betting draws and checking draws when it suits.

Ok I get this now and will integrate it to my game. But what about if I completely missed the flop (no draws for me, no high card)? Wouldn't it be better to bet a bit less, when there's no hostile draws on the board and you think it will be enough to chase them away?

Damn... this post has really been useful. I actually feel like I'm a donk, and why didn't I think of these (simple) things myself. :oops:

if you dont want to bet then check. Dont be afraid to check, and watch what happens when you check when you are expected to bet.
dont advertise your holdings through bet size unless you do so for value/information.
12-27-2006, 07:03 PM
pokerroomace

it's not a great idea cbetting with 3 opponents.

your betting on the flop depends more on your opponents cards than yours. if the flop comes Q52r and there's 3 players in the hand who all limped and you have position then you can take a stab at the pot if it's checked to you. it doesn't really matter what cards you have.

i think cbetting between 1/3 to 3/4 pot is the best plan most of the time. with 4 players in the hand you have to be careful and betting 3/4 pot could be expensive. half/third pot bets are better. narrows down opponents in hand and you can maybe take the pot on the turn if players are still in the hand.

if the board is AsKsQs you need to be really careful when you cbet
12-28-2006, 03:50 AM
Jupit3r

Quote:

it's not a great idea cbetting with 3 opponents.

your betting on the flop depends more on your opponents cards than yours. if the flop comes Q52r and there's 3 players in the hand who all limped and you have position then you can take a stab at the pot if it's checked to you. it doesn't really matter what cards you have.

i think cbetting between 1/3 to 3/4 pot is the best plan most of the time. with 4 players in the hand you have to be careful and betting 3/4 pot could be expensive. half/third pot bets are better. narrows down opponents in hand and you can maybe take the pot on the turn if players are still in the hand.

if the board is AsKsQs you need to be really careful when you cbet

I think I have all this figured out now. Most of my c-betting happens from position because I tend to be quite tight from EP and MP too...

Let's say I raise from MP with AJx, get two calls from CO and Button. If flop hits Ks7d2c I'm definately not gonna c-bet this board. But if the flop is Ts7d2c instead, I c-bet it and it's usually 2/3 or 3/4 pot.

When I'm in position I still always evaluate the opps, board and my holdings before c-betting. Althought I sometimes still tend to make hasty decisions.