how badly did i fuck this up. 25NL JTs

just in 2 orbits so no read on opp. i doubled up from a set.

check my line please. my lack of having to play draws at SNGs has screwed me here.

SHould i shove flop? free card turn? Why is he checking the turn to me

PokerStars Game #7398387174: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/12/11 - 14:38:54 (ET)
Table 'Tyndareus' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: CelticUabhar ($50.05 in chips)
Seat 2: ludo21 ($24.75 in chips)
Seat 3: starboardman ($7.85 in chips)
Seat 4: bennettsean ($30.35 in chips)
Seat 5: Nummer Eins ($35.70 in chips)
Seat 6: Farbkasten ($15.65 in chips)
Seat 7: Dilsnik7 ($40.35 in chips)
Seat 8: chilwad ($12.15 in chips)
Seat 9: Shermod ($21.90 in chips)
ludo21: posts small blind $0.10
starboardman: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to CelticUabhar [Tc Jc]
bennettsean: folds
Nummer Eins: calls $0.25
Farbkasten: folds
Dilsnik7: calls $0.25
chilwad: folds
Shermod: folds
CelticUabhar: calls $0.25
ludo21: calls $0.15
starboardman: checks
*** FLOP *** [8c Jd 9c]
ludo21: checks
starboardman: checks
Nummer Eins: bets $0.50
Dilsnik7: raises $2.60 to $3.10
CelticUabhar: calls $3.10
ludo21: folds
starboardman: folds
Nummer Eins: folds
*** TURN *** [8c Jd 9c] [Ks]
Dilsnik7: checks
CelticUabhar: bets $6
Dilsnik7: raises $13 to $19
CelticUabhar: ????

I don't think you donked it up. HU I re-raise this flop, but with all the other players, I like a call so hopefully one of them might come along. The turn c/r is unfortunate, but he's giving you close to the right pot odds for your 15 outs (although the 4 Q's might be ties) and you probably have some implied odds. I call turn and c/f river if you don't hit.

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my lack of having to play draws at SNGs

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:roll:

You're building a pot on the turn with a marginal hand against a range of hands that can only be ahead of you or really too weak to call $6. The money you're putting in is only extracting from really weak jacks and/or extremely stupid opponents. The fact that a flush draw exists only serves to make you overplay your marginal hand.

This is a perfect spot to check behind having outs and such a marginal hand. I think you just need to gain a better understanding of why it's correct to check behind for pot control in certain spots. This is a good spot for that.

Think about your opponents possible hand, and what your bets are doing against those possible holdings. At first you won't be so good at it, but in the hand you showed here, you were not even trying to do it.

I check the turn. A player who raises big on the flop like that usually represents a made hand who doesn't want the draw to make it. You have top pair, shitty kicker. When he gives me the free card, I take it and if my flush doesn't get there I attempt to show down as cheap as possible. I assume I have to draw to the winning card here.

I wouldn't just consider his hand just TPWK. If this was a raised pot I wouldn't mind getting ai on the flop, but I think you play it fine by just calling.

I think checking behind the turn here is better than betting although I don't think betting is a crime.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

Quote:

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my lack of having to play draws at SNGs

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:roll:

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point taken!!

on reply to others, i wanted to take control when i saw the flop but the action i felt restricted me. i didnt feel it was good to do much but just call the flop action.

opp's turn check threw me off-guard. is he really weak? so i bet, BTW i have an OESD to (just some just mentioned hitting flush without maybe noticing the Str8 draw).

rondavu is right tho, but i should also take me time in making decision which should help in recapping action and narrowing ranges.

OKay i folded after opp c/r turn.

You actually have an OESFD. You can play these so incredibly strong on the flop. A lot of people don't seem to realize that.

You vs top set here
TsJs 43%
JdJc 54%

Bottom Set
9d9h 52%
TsJs 45%

You vs Nut Straight
JsTs 38%
QcTd 54%

You run into the nut straight, okay unlucky.

Now, lets look at what you're more realistically up against.
AcAd 37%
JcTc 61%

8d9d 34%
JcTc 63%

KcKh 34%
JsTs 64%

And how about AsKs..
AsKs 35%
JsTs 63%

Okay, probably way to many examples here, you get the point I'm sure. Theres no way you get me away from taking control on the flop. If I take it down there, perfect. If they push me, even better. If they call, I'm firing on the turn. Why do I get the impression you didn't notice you had the OESFD? :) Having almost every card in the deck hit you rules.

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Originally Posted by joshuadzl

You actually have an OESFD. You can play these so incredibly strong on the flop. A lot of people don't seem to realize that.

You vs top set here
TsJs 43%
JdJc 54%

Bottom Set
9d9h 52%
TsJs 45%

You vs Nut Straight
JsTs 38%
QcTd 54%

You run into the nut straight, okay unlucky.

Now, lets look at what you're more realistically up against.
AcAd 37%
JcTc 61%

8d9d 34%
JcTc 63%

KcKh 34%
JsTs 64%

And how about AsKs..
AsKs 35%
JsTs 63%

Okay, probably way to many examples here, you get the point I'm sure. Theres no way you get me away from taking control on the flop. If I take it down there, perfect. If they push me, even better. If they call, I'm firing on the turn. Why do I get the impression you didn't notice you had the OESFD? :) Having almost every card in the deck hit you rules.

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I did feel my hand was very strong yet unmade, i wanted to be aggressive with it. felt the action on flop limited me to calling as the best option.

turn tho i think i should of checked since i only called flop, opp had shown strength already on flop so i should of jumped at the chance of a free card there.

if i had of RR flop,got called,i would of shoved/bet turn. but again as played I wasnt in control. i folded thinking, i dont want to shove now with very little FE (i think) plus im drawing on the last card. calling seemed incorrect at the time while i did the math in my head (tho i dont think i was spot on).

hows my reasoning? wrong. i really wanted control on flop, but consensus seems to say calling is fine (if they notice i have a OES,FLUSH,D, with a pair.

raise to $10 on flop call a push
otherwise i take my free card on the turn mostly but not always.
Pushing isnt awful IMO

LOL. I didn't notice it was an OESFD. Jam that shit.

I did notice and I still like a call on the flop. So many players, it would be nice if more than one comes along.

This is close, Id like a push if there was a little more dead money in the pot. As played is fine too, but Id check the turn most of the time, because I didnt like villain's reraise on flop.

i like to reraise the flop here. but as played, im taking the free card on the turn.

I stick with pushing the flop all day long. I'm so far ahead, but I'm still drawing and this hand shrinks big on the turn. You're a favorite out to the river from the flop, you become a dog at the turn.

Get your money in while you're ahead. I don't slow play enormous draws like this, I stuff them because its so profitable. They're so hidden. Also, if the flush does get there, you'll probably lose your action.

Think about it this way. Say you have a moderately big hand like Aces or Kings or even AJ to this board, I make the push on your raise and you think I'm drawing to the flush, you call. No brainer. Perfect, you didn't realize I was drawing with an OESFD and your balls shrink and you realize you're behind and hopefully push me them chips by the river. Okay, so lets say I flat call and the turn brings me the flush. You put me on that draw originally, so my payoff becomes shit. Thats no good.

I play hands like these fast, because when I get there when playing slow its just so difficult to extract the money.

Jam the flop as balance to jam sets/2p hands.

reraise to 12 on flop.

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

reraise to 12 on flop.

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would this not be better than shoving $40 into $6 pot.

if called ill shove turn then or get it allin on flop.

I too agree, re-raise flop, as played, check the turn, and fold on river if unimproved.
I bet he has set or KJ, probably KJ

-beck