Opening up...

One of the changes I've been incorporating recently in an effort to open up my game a tad has been cold calling in position with hands with sooted potential, looking to hit the flop hard. Shania seems to like it.

This hand is from a wee hours session when 200nl on FT seems to be full of laggs. Not much info on this guy - 19/10 over 20 hands.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $256.30
Hero: $200
CO: $201
Button: $1098.30
SB: $219
BB: $249.15

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with Q:club: 4:club:
UTG folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, SB raises to $10, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 2:club: 5:club: Q:heart: ($22, 2 players)
SB bets $18, Hero raises to $36, SB raises all-in $209, Hero calls all-in $154.
Uncalled bets: $19 returned to SB.

Turn: J:diamond: ($402, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $402)


River: 2:spade: ($402, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $402)


Results:
Final pot: $402

Oh, and before you get on me for the minraise, I do this a lot to send off a weak vibe in an effort to induce a bluff.

open limping Q4s UTG+1 is a leak in almost all situations.

postflop is fine

I prefer to think of it as the HJ, but okay. So you're folding preflop? Or raising?

Of all tables, a table full of laggs is probably about the worst one I can imagine for open limping Q4s in early position. ewewewewew fold preflop. If you must play, raise.

Limping out of position with a marginal hand and then calling a raise from an aggressive player is possibly one of the most unprofitable plays in holdem.

Okay, maybe this is a huge leak I should work on fixing, but my take on playing speculative hands from EP is that my first objective should be to see the flop cheaply. On a laggy table my liklihood of being reraised is high - a reraise I'm not calling - so while this might seem counterintuitive, limp/call gets me where I want to be - looking at a flop - for a price I'm willing to pay. Tell me where that thinking is wrong (seriously).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warpe

Okay, maybe this is a huge leak I should work on fixing, but my take on playing speculative hands from EP is that my first objective should be to see the flop cheaply. On a laggy table my liklihood of being reraised is high - a reraise I'm not calling - so while this might seem counterintuitive, limp/call gets me where I want to be - looking at a flop - for a price I'm willing to pay. Tell me where that thinking is wrong (seriously).

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Where did you get the idea that playing speculative hands from EP is a good idea? Isn't calling w/ speculative hands from LP good for opening up?

Why I don't think it's good:
1) Bad hand, unlikely to improve, high reverse implied odds
2) Bad position, will be hard to extract when we do improve
3) Laggy table, likely to get raised, this kills our implied odds, or we throw a bb away
4) I can't put him on a range, but where do you think you stand on this almost perfect flop? I'm guessing 60/40 at best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

4) I can't put him on a range, but where do you think you stand on this almost perfect flop? I'm guessing 60/40 at best.

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I'll address the rest, but how often do we see a shove here with an overpair/set looking to extract?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

Why I don't think it's good:
1) Bad hand, unlikely to improve, high reverse implied odds
It's easy to get away from, so reverse implied odds aren't really there. No arguing with your first point.
2) Bad position, will be hard to extract when we do improve
I have position on my opponent here. If CO or BTN raises, I get ready to dump it depending on what I think of them.
3) Laggy table, likely to get raised, this kills our implied odds, or we throw a bb away
It kills our implied odds if we raise and get reraised, but not if we limp. We throw a bb away every time we limp a baby pp in EP and don't hit, or scs in LP, so I don't worry about that overmuch. The real money is made or lost postflop.

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http://www.grancoclark.com/images/mp_burning_money.jpg

1) Ok, so not "high" implied reverse odds, I was thinking of hitting 2 pair, which is easily counter-fitted but too specific

2) In this hand you have position, but if you are called by CO or BTN then you would not have position, I think that's going to happen a lot and getting paid will be harder

3) The raise cuts your implied odds from 100:1 to ~25:1, That's a big hit and 25:1 isn't good enough for suited trash IMO

4) I can't answer this, how often does AQ, TT, air, another flush draw, etc push?

I don't open-limp baby pp in EP.

I still think it's a leak. Assume 1/2 the time you fold because you get raised by someone with position, you then need the one time you see a flop to show an expectation of +1bb to make up for it and make this a break-even play.

A bb saved is a bb earned

Warpe what would you do if you knew a villain was limping crap like Q4s from EP and you were on the button or cutoff? Wouldn't it be pretty easy to make money off of him by either limping behind or raising preflop?

Also, you say "cold calling in position" in your OP. This can be a great, profitable play when a predictable player raises and you are on the button or there are multiple limpers and you get to see a flop in position (or at least relative position, i.e. later position than the preflop raiser).

I'll do this sometimes on the button. From any other position it's just pissing away money.

Once he raises pre-flop, you don't have (implied) pot odds to call.

You won't hit enough to make it worthwhile and when you do hit you won't get paid off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

You won't hit enough to make it worthwhile and when you do hit you won't get paid off.

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...and there are too many players left to act who may raise.

Another reason I'll make this play on the button is that if it's checked to me sometimes I can pick-up the pot with not much of anything.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll try to restrict this kind of donkishness to the button from now on. And remind me not to play in laggfests at 4 in the morning.

For the results oriented: he mucked 77.

If you are going to open up, start playing way more loosely from the button.