nut flush draws

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11-10-2006, 05:13 PM
donkbee

nut flush draws

I've been losing a lot of money with nut flush draws and was wondering if anyone has any general guidelines when it comes to playing them. Here's some recent hands:

1) Raise? How much? Call? What's my turn action if the flush doesn't come?

PokerStars Game #6946507319: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/08 - 19:50:16 (ET)
Table 'Eugenia IV' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Anwik ($12 in chips)
Seat 2: courtiebee ($26.15 in chips)
Seat 3: Ross1948 ($8.95 in chips)
Seat 4: hanhu ($44.25 in chips)
Seat 5: Shyzster ($9.40 in chips)
Seat 6: vermine ($30.40 in chips)
Seat 7: wunn_chikk ($6.60 in chips)
Seat 8: vispila ($47.40 in chips)
Seat 9: DHebert ($33.75 in chips)
hanhu: posts small blind $0.10
Shyzster: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [Ah 5h]
vermine: folds
wunn_chikk: folds
vispila: folds
DHebert: calls $0.25
Anwik: calls $0.25
courtiebee: calls $0.25
Ross1948: raises $0.75 to $1
hanhu: calls $0.90
Shyzster: calls $0.75
DHebert: calls $0.75
Anwik: calls $0.75
courtiebee: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [5s 4h Qh]
hanhu: checks
Shyzster: checks
DHebert: bets $4
Anwik: folds
courtiebee:

2) Only had 35 hands with this person, he had a VPIP of 60. Should I have bet the flop OOP instead?

PokerStars Game #6960253203: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/09 - 21:17:22 (ET)
Table 'Lachesis V' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Kiro6 ($51.35 in chips)
Seat 2: B.Perrone ($25.85 in chips)
Seat 3: courtiebee ($25 in chips)
Seat 4: doc soy ($22 in chips)
Seat 5: slider888 ($25.35 in chips)
Seat 6: buddi ($14.65 in chips)
Seat 7: IglooKing ($29.50 in chips)
Seat 8: GoldenGeek ($15.95 in chips)
Seat 9: nickeldimebs ($24.90 in chips)
B.Perrone: posts small blind $0.10
courtiebee: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [Ah Qh]
doc soy: calls $0.25
slider888: folds
buddi: calls $0.25
IglooKing: raises $1.25 to $1.50
GoldenGeek: folds
nickeldimebs: folds
Kiro6: calls $1.50
B.Perrone: folds
courtiebee: calls $1.25
doc soy: calls $1.25
buddi: calls $1.25
*** FLOP *** [2h 8h Ts]
courtiebee: checks
doc soy: checks
buddi: checks
IglooKing: checks
Kiro6: bets $5
courtiebee: raises $10 to $15

3) Honestly I just never know what to do.

PokerStars Game #6961269859: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/09 - 22:27:13 (ET)
Table 'Gisela V' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: ky_reign ($21.65 in chips)
Seat 2: daviddus ($82.10 in chips)
Seat 3: Stlfamguy ($16.95 in chips)
Seat 4: rk514219 ($35.35 in chips)
Seat 5: puckhead23 ($41.35 in chips)
Seat 6: Yodasworld ($14.35 in chips)
Seat 7: courtiebee ($24.75 in chips)
Seat 9: sretawlooc ($18.60 in chips)
ky_reign: posts small blind $0.10
daviddus: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [Ts As]
Stlfamguy: folds
rk514219: folds
puckhead23: folds
Yodasworld: folds
courtiebee: raises $0.75 to $1
sretawlooc: calls $1
ky_reign: folds
daviddus: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [9s Qc 5s]
daviddus: checks
courtiebee: bets $2.25
sretawlooc: calls $2.25
daviddus: folds
*** TURN *** [9s Qc 5s] [Tc]
courtiebee: checks
sretawlooc: bets $2.50
courtiebee: calls $2.50
*** RIVER *** [9s Qc 5s Tc] [4d]
courtiebee: checks
sretawlooc: bets $4.25
courtiebee: folds
sretawlooc collected $12 from pot
11-10-2006, 05:17 PM
BankItDrew

Play draws aggressively, for the most part. If you don't win by betting, you might win with a flush.
11-10-2006, 05:48 PM
Fnord

1: Call, also I sometimes raise there pre-flop.
2: Big pot, GAMB00L!!!
3: Meh, yeah, I usually play it that way.
11-10-2006, 05:49 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Play draws aggressively, for the most part. If you don't win by betting, you might win with a flush.

In other related news, I usually bet but sometimes call because they might fold if I bet.
11-10-2006, 08:57 PM
Lukie

The best thing to do if you really want to get better at NL ring, which I know is your intent, is to really try to reason through why x is a better play as opposed to y. Sorry for the generic opening...

hand 1 I'll sometimes raise preflop to 6x or so the first time around. Given that people generally call too much at these stakes, one of the limpers only has half a stack, and there are a few shorties to your left, I like the limp. I only like calling the raise because there is so much dead money in the pot already and you're closing the action, with perfect relative position in a large field.

I'm not really sure how I want to proceed on this flop to be honest. With a pair and nut flush draw, you'd normally bomb it on the flop facing a bet OR a raise. In this particular spot though it might not be a bad idea to get some more money in the pot. I really don't know if I want to call or raise here. You could always borrow my time machine if you make the wrong decision here.

hand 2) I like it.. I would just push though. If you push all your sets and good draws here, you will be massively +EV in these spots.

hand 3) for better or for worse, a lot of times I bomb a blank turn here (and cry the rare times that I get raised off). With the T though, I kinda like the c/c. It gives your hand some real value even if your draw misses (think about all the times where the other guy has 98s or something here). I think this hand is played fine. Passive, but ok. River really looks like a KQ type hand on the other guys end.
11-10-2006, 09:43 PM
Jager

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

hand 2) I like it.. I would just push though. If you push all your sets and good draws here, you will be massively +EV in these spots.

I am really interested in more detail here. Are you pushing all draws or just flush with 2 overs, flush w/ gutshot, oesd w/ backdoor flush, oesfd, any others I am missing?
11-10-2006, 09:56 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jager

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

hand 2) I like it.. I would just push though. If you push all your sets and good draws here, you will be massively +EV in these spots.

I am really interested in more detail here. Are you pushing all draws or just flush with 2 overs, flush w/ gutshot, oesd w/ backdoor flush, oesfd, any others I am missing?

For what it's worth. I think people push big draws in nothing pots way too often because they read posts like Lukie's that don't give the whole story.

Against loose and/or passive opponents with lots of money behind and/or not much in the pot I play my draws very straight forward because pushing doesn't punish their biggest errors.
11-10-2006, 10:11 PM
nutsinho

Hand 1: call. You're only a favorite against KK no heart, so assuming you don't have any FE at these stakes it's probably a little bit bad to bomb it.

Hand 2: Good.

Hand 3: I check-push this turn a whole lot thinking I can make KQ- fold. He might call with QJ sometimes, but thats not the end of the world.
11-11-2006, 04:54 AM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jager

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

hand 2) I like it.. I would just push though. If you push all your sets and good draws here, you will be massively +EV in these spots.

I am really interested in more detail here. Are you pushing all draws or just flush with 2 overs, flush w/ gutshot, oesd w/ backdoor flush, oesfd, any others I am missing?

For what it's worth. I think people push big draws in nothing pots way too often because they read posts like Lukie's that don't give the whole story.

Against loose and/or passive opponents with lots of money behind and/or not much in the pot I play my draws very straight forward because pushing doesn't punish their biggest errors.

you need to elaborate on this more, it was one of my errors that i plugged quite quickly.
Fwiw courtie, i generally tend to call if i think ill bring other players along in the pot and raise if i think i can take down the pot there and then or make the pot HU against an opponent who will weakly fold the turn if i show strength on a second street (especially after a pfr)