Nit overrated or underrated ?

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10-27-2006, 04:02 PM
Elexshun

Nit overrated or underrated ?

I think it entirely depends on:

1. the limit you are playing at
2. the types of players you are playing against
3. your image

Does it mean anything to make a blanket statement which reads: "suited connectors are WAY WAY overrated" (Doyle Brunson sure didn't think so when he wrote super systems imo) perhaps this statement should have read: suited connectors are WAY WAY overrated by inexperienced players ?

All styles of play are effective to the degree you intelligently apply them

unless of course you are playing with Monkeys then of course you just sit and wait like an "underrated Nit"

it would be hard for a Nit to win even a marginaly sized pot from me if I know he is a Nit.
10-27-2006, 04:30 PM
Fnord

Re: Nit overrated or underrated ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elexshun

it would be hard for a Nit to win even a marginaly sized pot from me if I know he is a Nit.

You don't he's just another "unknown", "no reads". Small/medium stakes online poker is funny like that.
10-27-2006, 04:52 PM
Sheetah

Re: Nit overrated or underrated ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elexshun

... suited connectors are WAY WAY overrated in non deep-stack, non aggressive game

FYP
10-27-2006, 05:08 PM
Fnord

Suited connectors play fine in a passive game. Particularly if they are tight post-flop.
10-27-2006, 06:47 PM
Elexshun

Sheetah seems to be saying suited connectors play better in a deep stacked aggressive game. Fnord says they play better in a passive/tight preflop game. I tend to agree with Fnord If I am playing for stacks I would like to put my opponent on a somewhat predictable range. In a super aggro game I think by the time you won with em you would be about even.
10-27-2006, 06:53 PM
Miffed22001

fnord says they dont play badly in passive games either, not that they dont play well deep stacked, i think anyway.

FWIW, you cant make bad calls very often with sooted cards when the money is deep IMO preflop. When playing 100bbs deep you are more limited to playing the player with these sorts of hands more often, to steal little pots when they miss and to possibly get paid when you catch a large piece.
10-27-2006, 06:54 PM
Beck

suited connectors rock, and probably account to most of my big pots. great againsts PRF of 3%, cause all you need is 2 pair or better. also great in passive games.

anyways I play 50NL and I play mostly against rocks, mice and maniacs.
10-27-2006, 07:03 PM
Elexshun

Yes I absolutely agree with the deep stacks I will give you an example of how/when not to play suited connectors :) I was in super duper maniac aggro live game yesterday with 600 dollars avg. chip stacks. I made 2 or 3 calls with SC's in position to raises of about $50 preflop (2/5) bad bad bad bad. Obviously in a game like this Nit/Tag right ? or would anyone else be making calls that big ?
10-27-2006, 07:54 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beck

suited connectors rock, and probably account to most of my big pots. great againsts PRF of 3%, cause all you need is 2 pair or better. also great in passive games.

Ummm show me the math here.

Unlike pairs, you're going to get sucked out a lot. Also, you're going to have to play out a lot of draws. Hence, playing them in a passive game is great (since they give free cards, don't blow you out of pots and give you the green light to steal the pot when they are weak) or freeroll turns and rivers on your aggression.
10-27-2006, 08:27 PM
Beck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beck

suited connectors rock, and probably account to most of my big pots. great againsts PRF of 3%, cause all you need is 2 pair or better. also great in passive games.

Ummm show me the math here.

Unlike pairs, you're going to get sucked out a lot. Also, you're going to have to play out a lot of draws. Hence, playing them in a passive game is great (since they give free cards, don't blow you out of pots and give you the green light to steal the pot when they are weak) or freeroll turns and rivers on your aggression.

sorry, I misswrote, I will call suited connectors against a player who has a pfr of 3% or less cause you know he has a high PP or maybe AK and if you can get 2 pair or better you can often take these guys stacks
10-28-2006, 02:27 AM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beck

suited connectors rock, and probably account to most of my big pots. great againsts PRF of 3%, cause all you need is 2 pair or better. also great in passive games.

Ummm show me the math here.

uh ya if sc's make up most of your big pots then something's wrong with your AA/Set play.
10-28-2006, 03:36 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beck

suited connectors rock, and probably account to most of my big pots. great againsts PRF of 3%, cause all you need is 2 pair or better. also great in passive games.

Ummm show me the math here.

Unlike pairs, you're going to get sucked out a lot. Also, you're going to have to play out a lot of draws. Hence, playing them in a passive game is great (since they give free cards, don't blow you out of pots and give you the green light to steal the pot when they are weak) or freeroll turns and rivers on your aggression.

sorry, I misswrote, I will call suited connectors against a player who has a pfr of 3% or less cause you know he has a high PP or maybe AK and if you can get 2 pair or better you can often take these guys stacks

Yes, your math sucks. 2pr will happen less often than a set and get sucked out on far more often. Plus you will pay off the rare set. Also, sometimes the nit won't stack off with "only a pair".

Hence, you need something else to make up the balance.
10-28-2006, 01:50 PM
Sheetah

My idea of playing SCs in deep-aggro game is this: you call PFR w/ SC hoping to either hit 2P (very rare) or a good, preferably nut draw - flush or str8 (better, cause str8s are hard to spot). Making a little loose flop call w/ nut draw is not mistake against LAG(tard). Without going deep into math, you need aggro OPP AND deep stacks for implied odds.

From the other side I agree with Fnord wholeheartedly. Playing against weak tights leaves you a lot space for semibluffing and stealing pots and even if you get called, which is rare, you are up against someone who finally decided to take a stand or has a hand worth stacking with. If that happens - if you hit, you usually stack them.
10-28-2006, 04:49 PM
Beck

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beck

suited connectors rock, and probably account to most of my big pots. great againsts PRF of 3%, cause all you need is 2 pair or better. also great in passive games.

Ummm show me the math here.

uh ya if sc's make up most of your big pots then something's wrong with your AA/Set play.

no, if I add in all of my suited connector hands it is more money then all of my AA hands. but I will agree then all of my sets do pay better. I just got PT installed, and in the next month or 2 I will check to see if my statement is actually true. so far it is just a feeling I guess.
10-28-2006, 05:37 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beck

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beck

suited connectors rock, and probably account to most of my big pots. great againsts PRF of 3%, cause all you need is 2 pair or better. also great in passive games.

Ummm show me the math here.

uh ya if sc's make up most of your big pots then something's wrong with your AA/Set play.

no, if I add in all of my suited connector hands it is more money then all of my AA hands. but I will agree then all of my sets do pay better. I just got PT installed, and in the next month or 2 I will check to see if my statement is actually true. so far it is just a feeling I guess.

sample size?
10-28-2006, 09:47 PM
bearcats05

yeah really. maybe your sc's are running really hot over a small sample size.
10-29-2006, 10:41 PM
Beck

i have no smaple size, I just find that they pay off very well when they hit. that is all. as stated I just installed poker tracker, and in a month or so I will see if I am full of shit or not. according to you guys I am full of shit, and I can believe it :)
10-30-2006, 09:15 AM
jackvance

Simple math is enough to know that what you say can't be true.

AA: has every other possible hand dominated.
pp: flops a set 10.775% of the time, which most of the time has your opponent drawing dead
sc: flop 2p or better less than 5% of the time, and even then your opp often still has plenty of outs.
10-30-2006, 09:41 AM
biondino

That's facile. AA and (to a lesser extent) sets improve far less often than SCs which haven't flopped two pair or better but have made one pair, flush draw, straight draw etc.
10-30-2006, 10:05 AM
Elexshun

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

That's facile. AA and (to a lesser extent) sets improve far less often than SCs which haven't flopped two pair or better but have made one pair, flush draw, straight draw etc.

True i guess it just depends on who you are playing against... Certainly a decent player isn't going to give you correct odds to let your Sc's improve in a way which is profitable for you.

pp's clearly have more ev than sc's question: are sc's more profitable versus a single raiser or do they play better into a multi way unraised pot ????
10-30-2006, 01:03 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

That's facile. AA and (to a lesser extent) sets improve far less often than SCs which haven't flopped two pair or better but have made one pair, flush draw, straight draw etc.

However, if your strategy is to cold-call SCs, then fold unimproved you're not going to see many turns and rivers.
10-30-2006, 01:10 PM
Elexshun

I like the idea of raising your sc's if you have position you could A: win it on the flop via c-bet or B: see a free river card
10-30-2006, 01:18 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elexshun

I like the idea of raising your sc's if you have position you could A: win it on the flop via c-bet or B: see a free river card

*ding ding ding* PAY THE LINE!
10-30-2006, 03:02 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

question: are sc's more profitable versus a single raiser or do they play better into a multi way unraised pot ????

I say more profitable vs. single raiser. I'm way more comfy hitting the flop HU vs. a PFR than hitting the flop vs. like 6 others and hoping not to get outdrawn or flush-over-flush'ed.