Stack-a-Donk-ed

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10-19-2006, 10:19 AM
Genitruc

Stack-a-Donk-ed

Villain has good stats, whatever that means (21/14).

***** Hand History for Game 5359395265 *****

$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, October 12, 01:12:20 ET 2006
Table Monster #1277508 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6

Seat 1: VILLAIN ( $505.65 )
Seat 4: DrFeelinF1ne ( $388.50 )
Seat 5: ninjia3x ( $405.10 )
Seat 6: imprimante ( $808.40 )
Seat 2: HERO ( $608 )
Seat 3: SkzVct ( $788.50 )
DrFeelinF1ne posts small blind [$2].
ninjia3x posts big blind [$4].

** Dealing down cards **

Dealt to HERO [ 9s Ts ]
imprimante folds.
VILLAIN raises [$14].
HERO calls [$14].
SkzVct folds.
DrFeelinF1ne folds.
ninjia3x folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, Qh, Tc ]

VILLAIN bets [$25].
HERO calls [$25].

** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]

VILLAIN checks.
HERO bets [$65].
VILLAIN raises [$175].
HERO… gets stack-a-donked? Or says fuck it? Or smooth calls intending to do what on river?
10-19-2006, 10:30 AM
euphoricism

It doesnt look like your hand beats anything but a bluff, unfortunatly. Check/minraise = tehnutz, barring some other read.

Umm.. my question is preflop and how it leads into the flop... this isn't the flop youre looking for when you call raises with T9s, is it? Why call flop?
10-19-2006, 10:46 AM
Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

It doesnt look like your hand beats anything but a bluff, unfortunatly. Check/minraise = tehnutz, barring some other read.

Umm.. my question is preflop and how it leads into the flop... this isn't the flop youre looking for when you call raises with T9s, is it? Why call flop?

-Because I likely have the best hand (that flop connected with his hand by opening up draws to a big part of his range).

-If he has an overpair (unlikely) or an AQ-ish hand I have 5 outs to a decent-sized pot (another 10 is best card for me since 9 will slow him down if he doesn't have straight).

-Also, there are many draws that I can rep in position.
and his turn action will usually tell me a whole lot (not so much here though lol).

Finally, it's a scary board for him if he didn't connect big and I can steal the pot in position on the turn very frequently. Don't forget that a 21/14 tagg is c-betting this flop almost 100% of the time HU.
10-19-2006, 10:47 AM
Genitruc

and btw it was closer to a standard raise than a minraise (almost 3x my turn bet)
10-19-2006, 10:57 AM
Ravageur

I probably take the chance of getting stack-a-donked because if villain is an aware good player as you sort of mention, then he'll be aware that you're capable of floating and thus his range will make up of air or a bare Q as well as QQ, A10 or 66. I call the turn and see what he does on river. If you call the turn, you definitely have to call his push.
10-19-2006, 11:08 AM
Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravageur

I probably take the chance of getting stack-a-donked because if villain is an aware good player as you sort of mention, then he'll be aware that you're capable of floating and thus his range will make up of air or a bare Q as well as QQ, A10 or 66. I call the turn and see what he does on river. If you call the turn, you definitely have to call his push.

don't see how he could have a bare Q here unless he s stoooopid.
10-19-2006, 11:28 AM
andy-akb

Have you been floating a lot, particularly against this opponent? I think this hand right here shows why the occasional turn c/r bluff is a very good play as a bluff as it gets you to consider folding hands like this and will make you more weary of floating in the future. Without knowing how things have been going at this table, or if you two have history, this hand is tough to play.

Would you consider this spot push fold? Or would calling be an option?
10-19-2006, 12:39 PM
Robert

If opp is perceiving you as floating a lot then I would def. shove turn (or maybe just call and shove river). If not, well - I dont play these stakes and I know they play a lot more aggro than NL100 so cant really give you a good answer.
10-19-2006, 12:54 PM
Genitruc

I think pushing is the worst option.

If I'm ahead, then I'm crushing him having him draw either to 2-3 outs or straight/flush draw (8-12 outs).
10-19-2006, 01:04 PM
Genitruc

Robert I can't tell you exactly how he perceives me but I am definitely prone to float ppl I think are ABC taggs. Judging from this guy's stats, I probably assumed this and may have stolen a pot or two from him. This hand happened while back but thought it could be interesting to discuss for postflop theory.

The interesting thing to me is figuring out what villain can have here that checks the turn with lots of draws out there. Is his range categorically boat/air? Can he ever play AA/KK like this?

Other thing to consider is how likely it is that he puts me on a 10. I'm thinking not very likely.
10-19-2006, 01:13 PM
Robert

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

I think pushing is the worst option.

If I'm ahead, then I'm crushing him having him draw either to 2-3 outs or straight/flush draw (8-12 outs).

true, if you believe you are ahead calling turn and shoving river is better.
10-19-2006, 01:23 PM
elipsesjeff

What about a weak reraise to get him to go over the top? I think I'm playing for stacks here as your hand is very well concealed. He can probably fold to a push probably so that isn't a good idea. I like a call here and go over the top of his river bet, since you are in position.
10-19-2006, 01:24 PM
gabe

call anything he bets but bet when he checks
10-19-2006, 01:44 PM
Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

call anything he bets but bet when he checks

on river? i think this is best line if you mean after flat-calling turn...
10-19-2006, 01:47 PM
Genitruc

Jeff I don't think he ever goes over the top after I 3-bet the turn with a hand I beat. Maybe.. MAYBE with AA/KK if he's a donk.
10-19-2006, 01:51 PM
euphoricism

I think if you push you only get called by a better hand, as you mentioned. And I just dont think I can fold.

Bah. Makes me wish I could still make money at limit.
10-19-2006, 01:52 PM
Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I think if you push you only get called by a better hand, as you mentioned. And I just dont think I can fold.

Bah. Makes me wish I could still make money at limit.

lmao no shit eh
10-19-2006, 02:02 PM
Ravageur

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

What about a weak reraise to get him to go over the top? I think I'm playing for stacks here as your hand is very well concealed. He can probably fold to a push probably so that isn't a good idea. I like a call here and go over the top of his river bet, since you are in position.

This isn't limit. The only thing a re-reraise on the turn does is tell him what your hand is. You're getting all the money in on the river anyway, so it's call or push. And as said earlier, calling lets weaker hands bluff the river whereas you're often pushing weaker hands out of this pot on the turn with a push.
10-19-2006, 02:09 PM
Renton

just push
10-19-2006, 02:12 PM
gabe

push loses the most to what beats us and gains nothing from a bluff
10-19-2006, 02:14 PM
Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

push loses the most to what beats us and gains nothing from a bluff

!!!
10-19-2006, 03:42 PM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

push loses the most to what beats us and gains nothing from a bluff

We aren't beat enough to care, and he's not bluffing enough for us to care, right?

He's using what appears to be the standard AA/KK line, and If he has those two hands he's probably calling a push, considering that the turn pairing the board actually helps his hand vs our range.

Plus, there are a myriad of river cards that hurt our action vs AA and KK.
10-19-2006, 04:09 PM
Genitruc

He still has lots of monies left behind and if he calls a 3 bet push he sux more than i thought he did.

Not sure if I can justify this but I feel this is a boat or semi-bluff/air more than it's AA/KK.

I'll have to find some justification i guess...
10-19-2006, 04:18 PM
Genitruc

i ve thought about it and i think my justification (as to why it's not very often AA/KK) is that I haven't seen the stack-a-donk line very often with a bare overpair very often since moving up to nl400.
10-20-2006, 02:15 AM
Genitruc

as this thread dies... results just for fun : villain has Ac5c, misses river and pushes I call yay stack.