flopped flush OOP vs. thinking player

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09-29-2006, 01:10 PM
alias2211

flopped flush OOP vs. thinking player

Villain is new to my site, but I can tell right away he's pretty good. Small sample of hands he was 29/24 (~800 hands). Smart thinking player, making good decisions in good spots for the most part. The only other big hand we have played against each other was when we both flopped sets, 444 for him KKK for him (on another table). He's raising a lot PF, Cbetting almost always and firing a lot of 2nd barrels. But he's not really being forced to show down.

I usually don't smooth call PF OOP like that but I did on this hand because he was raising so much. I was really intending to just make a play independent of what the flop looked like, and then this happened:

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($965.50)
Button ($511.45)
Hero ($745.05)
BB ($673.80)
UTG ($488)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP raises to $21, 1 fold, Hero calls $18, 1 fold.

Flop: ($48) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $48, Hero calls $48.

Turn: ($144) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $144, Hero goes all in for $676.05, MP calls.

River: ($1494.10) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $1494.10

Results in white below:
Hero has Jd 9d (flush, ace high).
MP has 5h 5s (full house, fives full of aces).
09-29-2006, 01:29 PM
gabe

i fold preflop, then lead the flop. check/calling the flop is the worst thing you can do besides fold i think.
09-29-2006, 01:40 PM
Fnord

Re: flopped flush OOP vs. thinking player

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias2211

He's raising a lot PF, Cbetting almost always and firing a lot of 2nd barrels. But he's not really being forced to show down.

Ni Han sir.

If you catch big against him against soon, consider giving him a different look.
09-29-2006, 01:44 PM
gabe

Re: flopped flush OOP vs. thinking player

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias2211

I usually don't smooth call PF OOP like that but I did on this hand because he was raising so much.

i just caught this line, it doesnt make sense
09-29-2006, 02:16 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

i fold preflop, then lead the flop. check/calling the flop is the worst thing you can do besides fold i think.

If you never slow-play against an aggressive, thinking player, you're going to get run over. I think this is a good way to slow this type of player down and make your hands less readable.

The line you're suggesting is a good standard line against a fish, but it's not necessarily best in this situation.
09-29-2006, 02:38 PM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

If you never slow-play against an aggressive, thinking player, you're going to get run over.

wrong. if im running over people it doesnt matter, they arent given the chance to run over me.

instead of slowplaying random stuff i try to play everything fast and bluff more
09-29-2006, 03:05 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

If you never slow-play against an aggressive, thinking player, you're going to get run over.

wrong. if im running over people it doesnt matter, they arent given the chance to run over me.

instead of slowplaying random stuff i try to play everything fast and bluff more

Many of your postflop hands will have showdown value, but won't warrant a lot of action (top pair marginal kicker, middle pair, etc). How do you intend on playing these hands against this type of player? If you play them aggressively (your suggestion), you will be spewing money a lot of the time, if you play them passively, it will be difficult to get to show down and avoid big pots if your opponent can always correctly read you as weak when you play like this.

I think a big part of playing against good players is making your play difficult to read. If passive play always equals weak hand, you're giving away useful information unnecessarily.
09-29-2006, 03:08 PM
alias2211

Re: flopped flush OOP vs. thinking player

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias2211

I usually don't smooth call PF OOP like that but I did on this hand because he was raising so much.

i just caught this line, it doesnt make sense

to clarify, at this point in the match, i was ready to play a big hand w/ any two - didn't really matter which ones - to get him to slow down against me. not out of frustration, just as an indication that he should give me a little more consideration. the previous big pot i played against him was pretty much a standard monster line (the KKK vs. 444 hand) so i went for the CR allin because I had him on an ace.

if you were going to make a play on him like this for these reasons, how would you approach the hand? give no value to your first two cards and go from there. what would be a good line to give him w/ any two, in a general sense? i can tell this player is going to be at a lot of my tables and i need to spend some time and money on image with him i think. that will ultimately prove to be worthwhile against this guy, because it seems as though we're going to be fighting over the other stacks at the tables.
09-29-2006, 03:31 PM
Renton

leading the flop seems like the best option, especially if you put him on an ace.
09-29-2006, 05:15 PM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

If passive play always equals weak hand, you're giving away useful information unnecessarily.

theres plenty of time for passive play with weak and strong hands alike but not on boards like these