Thoughts on Check-Bombing Turns with Overpairs

I've been thinking some about the popular c/r turn line with overpairs lately. I think it's most common use is after being raised on the flop. My question about this line is...do you usually just use it when there's an apparent draw on the flop? If so then if villain is on a draw wouldn't they normally take their free card? The other time it's used is when villain just calls the flop bet. Is this used on dry flops and draw flops or what? I understand that some like to do this vs. floaters. My question about this line is...don't we get burned badly when villain flops a monster and is trying to take the classic call flop/raise turn line? Also, if they are really trying to float you then that means they are likely pretty far behind your overpair so...why raise them out of the pot?

It doesn't really matter. There's a reason this line is called "stack-a-donk" -- it doesn't work so well against good players. Most fish will turbo-call a check-raise with any hand that's good enough to value bet the turn.

It also depends on how deep the money is. In a raised pre-flop pot, a called flop c-bet followed by a c/r is going to be a raise to about pot.

Also, there is value gained here when we induce weak hands to bet, blow strong draws off their pot equity and make it more difficult to float against us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Also, there is value gained here when we induce weak hands to bet, blow strong draws off their pot equity and make it more difficult to float against us.

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I understand that checking the turn can induce action from weaker hands, but are we raising if there are no apparent draws? Wouldn't they just fold their weak holding on the turn most times? Also, how many players bet the turn on a draw if they can take a free card? - I'm not saying they don't...I'm actually wondering. I do like the fact that opponents will become less likely to float us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

It doesn't really matter. There's a reason this line is called "stack-a-donk" -- it doesn't work so well against good players. Most fish will turbo-call a check-raise with any hand that's good enough to value bet the turn.

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Are they really value betting though? It seems to me that floaters usually don't have a "value betting" hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Also, there is value gained here when we induce weak hands to bet, blow strong draws off their pot equity and make it more difficult to float against us.

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I understand that checking the turn can induce action from weaker hands, but are we raising if there are no apparent draws? Wouldn't they just fold their weak holding on the turn most times?

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whether you c/bomb the turn or c/c the turn and lead the river, you are still getting the same amount of $$$ from villains folding a weak hand. in terms of EV, when villain has the 2nd best hand, i think you would get more value out of reraising the turn 3-4x their bet, than leading out on the river (assuming you wouldnt check behind)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bode-ist

whether you c/bomb the turn or c/c the turn and lead the river, you are still getting the same amount of $$$ from villains folding a weak hand. in terms of EV, when villain has the 2nd best hand, i think you would get more value out of reraising the turn 3-4x their bet, than leading out on the river (assuming you wouldnt check behind)

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Hmmm that's true. Good point. So is the usual amount of the c/r All-In or like 3x or what? If not All-In then how do we usually react to a push?

My point is that the turn bomb for even something like 3x would often pot-commit us anyway. By shoving we're not allowing draws to save any value when they just call and miss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

My point is that the turn bomb for even something like 3x would often pot-commit us anyway. By shoving we're not allowing draws to save any value when they just call and miss.

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i agree with this. im not saying there isnt a time and a place for a turn push, but if stacks are deep enough, a 3-4x reraise will do the trick. as always, it depends on the situation.

I usually have this line in 25 NL assuming villain has
about full stack. I use this line randomly at 75% of time.

Preflop raise 4-6 x BB:

Flop: overpair or TPTK

standard c bet i use 1/2-2/3 pot usually.

If calls flop I check the turn: If raise I reraise like at turn.

Villain usually bets 12-16xBB (3-4) dollars I raise to 40xBB
10 dollars. This is pressure point.

Most of the time I get the pot right here. Especially against
lags.

If called I check/fold river. If re-raised I fold. If i got
strong reads I might play river differently. Against
unknown not.

T.

i dont use this line very much.

if c-bet is raised on flop im worried my tp/overpair is beat.. im basically looking to show down cheap after something like this.. to tell u the truth raising a cbet is pretty rare with a draw, even though it is a well known/common move most people are nits/weak and dont do it very often.. especially if their stats show it.. i guess with a read a check bomb is good..

BOMBS AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($103.15)
UTG ($63.55)
MP ($70.30)
Button ($311.15)
SB ($28.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero raises to $9, MP calls $6.

Flop: ($18.50) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $12, MP calls $12.

Turn: ($42.50) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $15, Hero raises to $50, MP calls $34.30 (All-In).

River: ($141.80) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $141.80

Results in white below:
Hero has Ac Ad (two pair, aces and sevens).
MP has 8h 8d (two pair, eights and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins $141.80.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($465.25)
BB ($92.50)
UTG ($29.80)
MP ($70.30)
Hero ($124.25)
Button ($46.05)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, Button calls $4, 2 folds.

Flop: ($9.50) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $6, Button calls $6.

Turn: ($21.50) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $10, Hero raises to $36, Button folds.

Final Pot: $67.50

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $67.50.

johnnyjizzle said, "u have to call"
johnnyjizzle said, "wtf"
Fnord said, "He had NOTHING"

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($166.10)
Hero ($128.15)
BB ($100)
UTG ($122.55)
MP ($105.50)
CO ($87.45)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
UTG raises to $4, MP calls $4, 1 fold, Button calls $4, Hero raises to $15, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP calls $11, Button folds.

Flop: ($39) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $15, Hero calls $15.

Turn: ($69) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $27, Hero raises to $98.15, MP folds.

Final Pot: $194.15

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $194.15.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($24)
BB ($77.90)
UTG ($79.40)
MP ($139.70)
Hero ($113.80)
Button ($230.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, Button calls $4, 1 fold, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($12.50) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $9, Button calls $9, BB folds.

Turn: ($30.50) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $12, Hero raises to $30, Button calls $18.

River: ($90.50) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $70.8 (All-In), Button folds.

Final Pot: $161.30

Results in white below:
Hero has Qc Qd (two pair, queens and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins $161.30.

Opponent is an FTR lurker and regular in this game.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($240.40)
SB ($248.20)
BB ($211.15)
Fnord ($215.55)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
Fnord raises to $8, Button calls $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets $16, Button calls $16, BB folds.

Turn: ($57) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets $16, Fnord raises to $45, Button calls $29.

River: ($147) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets $21, Fnord calls $21.

Final Pot: $189

so fnord, you seem to like this line after a flop call and also on paired flops huh? i'm guessing you don't run into monsters looking to call flop/raise turn often enough to worry about it then or do these villains have a tendency to float?

Not much scares me off when I think I'm good.

re: floating. It's short-handed and just about everyone knows a c-bet means "I still have 2 cards."

The idea behind check raise the turn is that by checking opponents will generally put you on missed overcards and will bet their hand for value whatever it may be, and an all in check raise overbet looks like a bluff in the eyes of many players so it's a "trap" type play. It's very effective especially against aggresive or loose players.

I think it's more a matter of bad to medicore players won't fold a hand once they put in a couple big bets. I see lots of absurd calls.

Well Fnord your hand histories look very familiar to
mine :) Only at smaller stakes :-)

Fnord, if you are going to post that last hand history at least show the results. :)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

IOS ($240.40)
SB ($248.20)
BB ($211.15)
UTG ($215.55)

Preflop: IOS is Button with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
UTG raises to $8, IOS calls $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $16, IOS calls $16, BB folds.

Turn: ($57) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, IOS bets $16, UTG raises to $45, IOS calls $29.

River: ($147) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, IOS bets $21, UTG calls $21.

Final Pot: $189

Results in white below:
UTG has Ah Js (two pair, nines and sevens).
IOS has 7c Ac (full house, sevens full of nines).
Outcome: IOS wins $189.

Nice thread guys...this is something I need to work on. I am always more paranoid of somebody drawing out on me and therefore rarely, if ever, employ this line. I will usually bet out each street to make them pay, esp with flush or str8 draw flops. Almost always when I check the turn, I have two overs or an underpair (i.e. JJ with an overcard on the board). It really does scream weakness when you cbet the flop and check the turn...and then when you pop them it sure looks like a bluff. Nice...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djzcko

Nice thread guys...this is something I need to work on. I am always more paranoid of somebody drawing out on me and therefore rarely, if ever, employ this line. I will usually bet out each street to make them pay, esp with flush or str8 draw flops. Almost always when I check the turn, I have two overs or an underpair (i.e. JJ with an overcard on the board). It really does scream weakness when you cbet the flop and check the turn...and then when you pop them it sure looks like a bluff. Nice...

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you need to know when the time is right to fire the second barrell. sometimes the scare card for you is also a scare card for villains

I guess I've been giving opponents too much credit thinking they'll auto-fold their crap holdings after our c/r. I forget how easily they become "committed."

welp tried it today with TPTK, guy had a set of course.

i dont think it works well in FR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TerryToma

welp tried it today with TPTK, guy had a set of course.

i dont think it works well in FR.

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lol sorry terry. i've used it several times at 25nl with overpairs...never with tptk. care to post the hh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TerryToma

welp tried it today with TPTK, guy had a set of course.

i dont think it works well in FR.

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lol sorry terry. i've used it several times at 25nl with overpairs...never with tptk. care to post the hh?

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Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $105.95
UTG+1: $20.70
MP1: $84.90
MP2: $100.80
MP3: $167.95
CO: $101.45
Button: $127.65
TerryToma: $111.45
BB: $153.50

Pre-flop: (9 players) TerryToma is SB with A:diamond: K:club:
5 folds, CO raises to $4, Button calls, TerryToma raises to $10, BB folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: 3:diamond: 4:club: 6:heart: ($31, 3 players)
TerryToma bets $25, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: A:heart: ($81, 2 players)
TerryToma checks, Button bets $20, TerryToma raises all-in $76.45, Button calls.

River: 7:spade: ($233.9, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $233.9)


Results:
Final pot: $233.9
TerryToma showed Ad Kc

I guess its pretty obvious set line, the weak bet on turn suckered me in. Plus i was looking for opportunities to check bomb after reading this thread.

Hand/player reading FTW.

terry, i think that hand is a bit different from the usual spots people use this line in.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $25.10
UTG+1: $15.80
Hero: $22.25
MP2: $9.30
MP3: $53.75
CO: $19.65
Button: $3.65
SB: $28.40
BB: $33

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with A:diamond: K:heart:
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: K:club: 8:heart: T:club: ($2.35, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.5, CO calls.

Turn: 3:club: ($5.35, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3, Hero raises to $9, CO calls.

River: 2:spade: ($23.35, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO is all-in $8.15, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $39.65

Villian is 23.3/4.7/4.0

Was the turn raise too small? Do I lead the River as played?

Preflop: Raise is good.

Flop: BEt is good.

Turn: I would lead out and fold to a raise. If smoothcalled I check call a decent river bet.

ThelVlaster,

Given the amount of money behind, I think if I play it like that I would just push the turn for the absurdity of it. I certainly would stick it in on the river because worse hands will tend to call a bet but not bet themselves.

But that one really comes down to where you think you're at there.