All in with KQ O - good play or bad?

PokerStars Game #6205197331: Tournament #31463058, $25+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/09/07 - 18:22:36 (ET)
Table '31463058 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: RiverRatt (2360 in chips)
Seat 2: Lefong (1445 in chips)
Seat 3: MetsFan259 (720 in chips)
Seat 4: zetaer2 (2060 in chips)
Seat 5: gossbo33 (830 in chips)
Seat 6: FunkThat67 (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: Tomas99 (2650 in chips)
Seat 8: eastharbor (840 in chips)
Seat 9: italy 90 (1125 in chips)
zetaer2: posts small blind 25
gossbo33: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MetsFan259 [Qs Kc]
FunkThat67: raises 100 to 150
Tomas99: calls 150
eastharbor: calls 150
italy 90: calls 150
RiverRatt: folds
Lefong: folds
MetsFan259: raises 570 to 720 and is all-in
zetaer2: folds
gossbo33: folds
FunkThat67: folds
Tomas99: calls 570
eastharbor: raises 120 to 840 and is all-in
italy 90: raises 285 to 1125 and is all-in
Tomas99: calls 405
*** FLOP *** [Tc Qc 2d]
*** TURN *** [Tc Qc 2d] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [Tc Qc 2d Kd] [Jd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Tomas99: shows [8s 8c] (a pair of Eights)
italy 90: shows [As 2c] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
italy 90 collected 570 from side pot-2
eastharbor: shows [5c 5s] (a pair of Fives)
italy 90 collected 360 from side pot-1
MetsFan259: shows [Qs Kc] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
MetsFan259 said, "what kind of call is that"
italy 90 collected 3105 from main pot
Tomas99 said, "hmmm"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4035 Main pot 3105. Side pot-1 360. Side pot-2 570. | Rake 0
Board [Tc Qc 2d Kd Jd]
Seat 1: RiverRatt folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Lefong folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: MetsFan259 (button) showed [Qs Kc] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 4: zetaer2 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: gossbo33 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: FunkThat67 folded before Flop
Seat 7: Tomas99 showed [8s 8c] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 8: eastharbor showed [5c 5s] and lost with a pair of Fives
Seat 9: italy 90 showed [As 2c] and won (4035) with a straight, Ten to Ace

You should post these in the SNG Tourney Tactics forum. But I think with an UTG raiser and 3 callers I might wait for a better spot to go all-in pre-flop. You still have enough chips relative to the blinds that you can wait a few orbits.

I say this is definitly a poor play.

1. The blinds are still somewhat small, 25-50. There is a time to push the short stack and i dont think this is it.

2. At a nine handed table, there is an under the gun raise and several callers. Whith you pushing in 570 more you are going to get called by one of those four (570 to see 1145), and really, what do you think you beat here? with a hand like kq you are dominated by too many hands, and it is likely that you are dominated. Id say this is a no brainer fold.

Conversely, if the blinds were say, 50-100, i would def push all in. The differnece is the blinds. You can afford to wait for a better spot, hopefully heads up against a late position raise, rather than multiway against a utgraise and THREE callers. Granted, at some point you need to push too survive, but this is not that point. I would rather push ai from the button with 23 offsuit than the situation you were in. Next time fold.

I see your points. Regardless, this bad beat was disappointing to say the least.

Uhmm, all three players had better hands than you to begin with, how is that a bad beat?

look at the flop and turn - that's why.

Quote:

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*** FLOP *** [Tc Qc 2d]
*** TURN *** [Tc Qc 2d] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [Tc Qc 2d Kd] [Jd]

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The important thing about the flop and turn is not the cards, it's the action. Notice how there are no actions on either street? A bad beat is when your opponent makes a mistake and gets lucky. Your opponents didn't make mistakes against you on the flop or turn.

Edit: I'm not trying to be an asshole, just pointing out that you got your chips in with the worst of it, and the flop, turn, and river doesn't change that.

Hes right, it takes five cards to come before the hand is completed. Not a bad beat that a better hand held up.

durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrkLJDFw i m drunk this is funny

This is not a good play because you had the worst hand preflop out of the 4 players.

Actually, if you looked at a Hold Em Odds Calculator you would see that my hand was only behind 88 by 4%, KQ had 29% to win, 88 had 33%, 55 had 17%, and A2 had 19% - so my hand was not the worst hand....

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds/texas_holdem

I may be wrong, but doesn't that show you to be a 71/29 underdog overall against the villians hands?


BTW: You had the worst hand of the bunch when the money went in.

Actually that shows that the play was +EV (in chips), with an expected return of ~t860 for his t720. In a cash game it is a correct play given that we know their hands and that they will call. However, since this is a tourney, you'll have to translate it to $EV (which I don't remember how to do).

The bottom line is that there will be better spots later on in the tournament.

edit:

Quote:

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BTW: You had the worst hand of the bunch when the money went in.

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This is obliously wrong. In this situation KQ was in fact the second best hand (and with this I correct some of my statements earlier in the thread, but I still don't like the play).

I may have been 29 - 71, but I was still mere percentage points behind the BEST hand - which means I had basically the best percentage to win out of the bunch.

I do agree that it was not a smart all in though now that I look at it, but I still believe that it was a bad beat due to A2's low chances of winning after the flop.

The flop has nothing to do with anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MetsFan259

I may have been 29 - 71, but I was still mere percentage points behind the BEST hand - which means I had basically the best percentage to win out of the bunch.

I do agree that it was not a smart all in though now that I look at it, but I still believe that it was a bad beat due to A2's low chances of winning after the flop.

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Going allin when you are 71% to be out of the tournament is a bad play. surely you can see that. At the time you obviously couldnt see their cards but with and UTG raise and 4 callers its likely you are at least going to be up against either an Ax or a pocket pair, both of which are slight favorites against you. Now is not the time to gamble it all on (at best) a coinflip. You still have plenty of chips to play with.

If you want to be consistenly winning sngs (around 50% winrate, winrate defined as cashing) you cannot ever make plays like this. Evereverever. Who cares about who had the best or the worst hand? Even if you started with the best hand you should be glad to make this fold.

In a sng you dont want to be pushing your chips in early on unless you are a huge favorite. Ive been playing a lot of sngs lately and i see these guys who keep pushing chips in with low pocket pairs and banking on a coinflip. You want to avoid coinflip situations if you are a good player because you give away your edge to weaker players. Save your chips, steal some blinds, make the $$$, then open up.

most certainly a bad play. far too much action before you to think youre hand is good or for all the other players to fold, when you are short stacked it is you who wants to do the pushing ,you do not want to react to the other players raises as there is a very good chance youre beat especially with a hand like KQ. the threat of domination is too great here.
you want to be the first to open with this hand from middle or late position and hope everyone folds or some fish calls you with KJ for example