The min-raise bluff

Has anyone else noticed an increase in the use of the min-rasie bluff?

I'm not sure if its just that i'm gaining experience and I now take more notice, but to me it seems ALOT more people use this play now. To the point where i'm wondering if theres been a popular book or bulletin release telling everyone how great it is.

It's a good play, I've been caught by it a few times. It has however prompted me to take alot more notice when people do it, trying to spot if its legitimate or not. I've made a bunch of people fold recently by coming back over the top. Generally, i've found that when the raise is made instantly it's often a play, but like any betting pattern it cant be universally applied, and thats what makes it tricky to read. I often make weak plays with a big hand

I had KK UTG today, i raised 4xBB, and got 1 caller. He was a tight player, and I never saw him get out of line. To my dismay, the flop came xAx, I made a continuation bet and was almost instantly min-raised. This time, I folded. Against one of the multiplying breed of idiot players though, i might not be so quick to do that.

It's a tricky play to figure out, cos most people are of the opinion that a min-raise means a monster, which is why i think it's being used so much now. And It serves more than 1 purpose. If your opponent has very little, you take control of the hand and generally take it down with a biggish bet on the next round. If he has a big hand, you find out where your at. And either way, unless you have an absolute monster, you're gonna be uneasy and possibly fold a winner like the KK hand i mentioned. In that situation i was pretty sure i was beat. I think he'd made 2 pair or more probably a set, but whatever the case, the min-raise made me very doubtful.

Update:
While I was writing this i decided to google 'min raise bluff'. I didnt search too hard, but the first page gave me 2 interesting write-ups. One, by phil gordon, warning people to beware the 'min-raise'. He goes on to state, as most decent players know, that the min-raise is most often used by someone holding a monster, trying to make a less expensive call more enticing, and reduce the risk of scaring them off with a big bet. The next, is about the benefits of using the min-raise as a bluff. Exactly the type of advice i assumed has been doing the poker rounds recently.

http://www.philivey.com/phil-ivey-tips.php?learntips=60
http://www.cardschat.com/showthread.php?t=62051

I'd like to know your thoughts. I've got a feeling that theres been a popular book released, or writeup on a big poker site about it, but i cant seem to find enough references to confirm why its so prevalent. If thats the case of course. I could just be taking more notice now.

Its hard to fold to a minraise. If you suspect someone might minraise you (can you predict these things?? i dunno sometimes i feel i can).. just bet 1/2 the pot rather than 2/3rds or full pot on your c-bet. makes it much easier to call and then you can slow down from there, also keeps the pot a managable size and possibly give you a chance to suck out.

of course i rarely ever respond to a minraise with a push.. i'd rather just 3x their bet and then get it all in on the turn.. if you push to their minraise you are giving them too much information and also an out.. if you just do a standard potsized reraise then they have a harder time getting away from it.

also it should be noted that many times a minraise bluff in position is an attempt to get a free card, or even someone with TPGK telling you to slow down, and he doesnt believe you.

don't c-bet tight players with KK on A-high flop

I do this selectively, especially when the table is three- or four-handed and people are betting 2nd and third pair rather than holding back like they do when there are 5 or 6 players in each hand. 80% of the time they call and then fold to a proper turn bet.

I wouldn't do it nearly so much at a full 6max table or especially not at full ring, because betting OOP almost always means TP or better.

miniraising is for fish.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

don't c-bet tight players with KK on A-high flop

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wha?

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

miniraising is for fish.

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I agree here for the most part.

If you are going to minraise bluff, then you also have to minraise with strong hands as well so your play isnt completely transparent. Now, I want value out of my strong hands so Im going to be making a real raise, becuase of this Im not going to be making any minraise bluffs. Ive considered it becuase it seems like a cheap way of pushing somebody off a cbet, etc. but I wouldnt want to completely incorporate somehting like that into my game.

Can it be effective? Yes, but I think the side effects of it if properly implemented outweigh its benefits.

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

don't c-bet tight players with KK on A-high flop

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wha?

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lol i was wondering who would be the first. read these...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=28142
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-21766.htm

This is actually a pretty good post. I feel like when I started playing a couple of years ago, minraises almost always meant big hand. Now they mean no such thing. In fact, I think at this point they're more of a "feeler" raise than a big hand raise.

I've gotten to where I give them no respect--If I'm OOP with TPGK and my flop bet gets minraised, I'll generally just ignore it and bet the turn the same as usual.

My problem is, when it'sa done to me, is that by and large it's the aggressive laggy players who try it (tighties who minraise almost always have the goods), and unless I have a great hand or a great draw, I'm not willing to take say TPGK all the way when the pot is already getting swollen.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

don't c-bet tight players with KK on A-high flop

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wha?

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lol i was wondering who would be the first. read these...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=28142
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-21766.htm

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the gabe example is inapplicable to this scenario because this isn't a reraised pot.

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

don't c-bet tight players with KK on A-high flop

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wha?

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lol i was wondering who would be the first. read these...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=28142
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-21766.htm

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the gabe example is inapplicable to this scenario because this isn't a reraised pot.

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k that's true

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

don't c-bet tight players with KK on A-high flop

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wha?

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lol i was wondering who would be the first. read these...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=28142
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-21766.htm

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the gabe example is inapplicable to this scenario because this isn't a reraised pot.

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But if you look at all the hands Gabe posted at the bottom of the first thread many of those aren't re-raised pots.

idk, i think if you check the flop and try to get value from your kings you just end up getting in too deep on the turn and river with a marginal hand a lot of the times.

My philosophy, and reason for always betting the flop in these spots is simple. Whenever there is a scenario where my opponents expect me to bet whether I have air or a hand, I generally like to accommodate them. I don't really believe in trying to squeeze significant value from KK when an ace flops. I treat that scenario as if I have flopped middle pair or a weak draw, and I bluff the flop with a couple of outs and a hand that actually has decent showdown value if called. If there is an ace in my range when an ace flops, you better believe I am going to bet it whether I have the ace or not (assuming a HU scenario with fold equity)

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Originally Posted by Renton

idk, i think if you check the flop and try to get value from your kings you just end up getting in too deep on the turn and river with a marginal hand a lot of the times.

My philosophy, and reason for always betting the flop in these spots is simple. Whenever there is a scenario where my opponents expect me to bet whether I have air or a hand, I generally like to accommodate them. I don't really believe in trying to squeeze significant value from KK when an ace flops. I treat that scenario as if I have flopped middle pair or a weak draw, and I bluff the flop with a couple of outs and a hand that actually has decent showdown value if called. If there is an ace in my range when an ace flops, you better believe I am going to bet it whether I have the ace or not (assuming a HU scenario with fold equity)

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Renton, no offense intended, but this sounds like a real leak in your game. Here's what I see wrong w/ what you wrote above:

1) I don't see how accomodating opponents' expectations figures into this. You're trying to get max value out of a good hand here, and if checking is the way to do it, then that's what you should do.

2) Treating KK like 77 just b/c there's an A on the board is throwing $ away, IMO. Do you just automatically assume villain has an A? Why? Yes, KK loses showdown value w/ an A on the board, but it doesn't automatically become worthless.

3) This really is a situation where better hands call/worse hands fold. Why fold out better hands? Why inflate the pot against worse hands? If you're worried about "getting in too deep on the turn and river" taking the c/c line, you're definitely in that much deeper by betting out and getting called or reraised. Do you automatically fold KK on an Axx board if you get minraised? If so, that's super weak-tight. If you call minraises in that spot, you're that much further in than you would be by check-calling.

i am on the same page with Renton here - Being preflop raiser we C-bet with a made hand the same way as when an overcard hits (in heads up situations)...but how did this min-raise subject get turned back into the KK with A flops? We have at least 5 of those threads....

Min-raising, IME, is a sign of weakness - qualify this though, the flop min-raise is 90% a sign of weakness...Min-raises preflop could mean anything...I do it just to get more money in with a fair hand in case I hit - But if your min-raising AA, KK or AK, that is just stupid, IMO (unless your down to heads up or last 4 of SNG or something) - If I get min-raise on flop, I re-pop usually with TP or better - I agree with biondino on how to play the rest...

I can see that preflop min-raising is a sign of a stronger hand, and the turn min-raise is a strong play (usually) but a flop min-raise is mostly weak and i would re-pop with even a decent draw in those sit's...

as far as me doing it myself, i don't min-raise bluff - I will get called most of the time if i just min-raise bluff and that isn't going to work often (unless they are full of crap also) - I would use it preflop to get more money in, and I would use it when i've got outs to the nuts....otherwise i try to make my river bluffs look like value bets - like in a $25 pot, i'll bluff $10-15 at the end...those look like i want to get called and more often (with a flush draw on board it works best) it works....i use to try and min-raise the flop with 2nd or 3rd pair until i learned how to play semi decent :) now i either just fold or make a real raise....

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

i am on the same page with Renton here - Being preflop raiser we C-bet with a made hand the same way as when an overcard hits (in heads up situations)...but how did this min-raise subject get turned back into the KK with A flops? We have at least 5 of those threads....

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Read my post above. To get the most value from KK we should check here, to balance this out we should also sometimes check when we hit this board with an ace. So no, we do not always bet here with a made hand, atleast we shouldnt.

i was thinking of it in terms of the C-bet - When we are the preflop raiser people do expect us to bet the flop most times - whether they play back or not is a different topic - So what im meaning is if we all agree that the C-bet is a good aggro play, then how can it not be a good aggressive play with KK and an Ace hits? isn't that just like c-betting with air? and since we take down enough pots doing that, doesn't that make it a good play? now when we get smooth called and popped on the turn then we are done with the hand...but that is the same exact way we are playing almost all hands, don't you agree?

we're not following the topic either way :) bump that old thread

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

but how did this min-raise subject get turned back into the KK with A flops?

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my bad - one thing to note though is that with air you have no showdown value. with KK you do and with an A on the board a cheap showdown would be nice

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

So what im meaning is if we all agree that the C-bet is a good aggro play, then how can it not be a good aggressive play with KK and an Ace hits? isn't that just like c-betting with air?

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Let's take c-betting an A93 rainbow flop with KQo (air) vs. KK. I'd much rather c-bet with KQo, because repping the ace is pretty much the only chance I have of taking the pot. With KK, my hand has showdown value. I can c-bet and scare away almost every hand that I beat and lose money to any ace, or I can check and try to play poker. Checking saves a c-bet against tight players who would only bet this board with an ace and makes more money against aggressive players who will bet any time it's checked to them HU. The dangerous players here are those capable of making a multi-street bluff, and you're probably losing money to them by checking vs. c-betting. But they're few and far between.

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So what im meaning is if we all agree that the C-bet is a good aggro play, then how can it not be a good aggressive play with KK and an Ace hits?

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To continue the thread hijack for a bit longer, here's the difference:

If you cbet OOP in this spot with 44, you are often getting better hands to fold, i.e. higher PP. If you cbet here with KK, you are getting the same hands to fold, only now they're worse hands that you'd rather take positional stabs at the pot. On an Axx board, there are no better hands that KK is folding out.

Edit: sorry, Zook beat me to it.

I think c-betting is very important when you have reraised. You represented a very strong hand, which could definately be AK. If you just give up when an Ace flops it's obvious what your hand is.

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Originally Posted by Massimo

I think c-betting is very important when you have reraised. You represented a very strong hand, which could definately be AK. If you just give up when an Ace flops it's obvious what your hand is.

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AAA?

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Originally Posted by zook

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

So what im meaning is if we all agree that the C-bet is a good aggro play, then how can it not be a good aggressive play with KK and an Ace hits? isn't that just like c-betting with air?

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Let's take c-betting an A93 rainbow flop with KQo (air) vs. KK. I'd much rather c-bet with KQo, because repping the ace is pretty much the only chance I have of taking the pot. With KK, my hand has showdown value. I can c-bet and scare away almost every hand that I beat and lose money to any ace, or I can check and try to play poker. Checking saves a c-bet against tight players who would only bet this board with an ace and makes more money against aggressive players who will bet any time it's checked to them HU. The dangerous players here are those capable of making a multi-street bluff, and you're probably losing money to them by checking vs. c-betting. But they're few and far between.

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now this makes a lot of sense to me - c-betting is really more a bluff most times, in essence, while with a real hand we have showdown value - makes sense...im still betting...

kidding :)

Here's a minraise on the flop as an example. (I'd also like any comments on my play)

***** Hand History for Game 5065547661 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, August 30, 18:34:25 ET 2006
Table Table 106840 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: Sebulba_13 ( $103.85 )
Seat 4: DEANY7 ( $139.13 )
Seat 6: Jnne5 ( $91 )
Seat 5: Zerbombt ( $98.95 )
Seat 3: midnite2345 ( $106.10 )
Seat 1: TheBusK3 ( $98.50 )
Zerbombt posts small blind [$0.50].
Jnne5 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Zerbombt [ 9d 9c ]
TheBusK3 folds.
Sebulba_13 folds.
DEANY7 raises [$2].
Zerbombt raises [$6.50].
Jnne5 folds.
DEANY7 calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ks, 9h, Tc ]
Zerbombt bets [$7].
DEANY7 raises [$14].
Zerbombt raises [$35].
DEANY7 calls [$28].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4h ]
Zerbombt is all-In [$49.95]
DEANY7 calls [$49.95].
** Dealing River ** [ 7s ]
Zerbombt shows [ 9d, 9c ] three of a kind, nines.
DEANY7 shows [ Jd, Qd ] a straight, nine to king.
DEANY7 wins $196.90 from the main pot with a straight, nine to king.

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

i was thinking of it in terms of the C-bet - When we are the preflop raiser people do expect us to bet the flop most times - whether they play back or not is a different topic - So what im meaning is if we all agree that the C-bet is a good aggro play, then how can it not be a good aggressive play with KK and an Ace hits? isn't that just like c-betting with air? and since we take down enough pots doing that, doesn't that make it a good play? now when we get smooth called and popped on the turn then we are done with the hand...but that is the same exact way we are playing almost all hands, don't you agree?

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The reason we dont cbet with KK is because it turns it into air. We are not saying betting this flop isnt profitable, we are saying it is not the most profitable way to play it. Most any time you turn a hand with as much value as KK into a bluff, you are giving up money.

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Originally Posted by Massimo

I think c-betting is very important when you have reraised. You represented a very strong hand, which could definately be AK. If you just give up when an Ace flops it's obvious what your hand is.

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Nobody is saying you give up, we are playing for pot control at this point. I hate saying the same thing thats been said over and over in this thread, but a lot of people didnt seem to notice it. If we check here with KK as well as Ax on occassion then it will not be obvious what we have because we could still have an ace.

I like the check behind flop/call turn/river line in position with KK on a drawless flop, but how does the rest of the hand play if we check out of position?

Lots of villains with QQ- will stab at the flop, check behind the turn but stab again at the river when faced with apparent weakness. So perhaps check-call flop, check-fold turn, check-call river if the turn checked through?

The optimal play depends on what the villain thinks our range is and how he thinks we play different hands in that range. So in assessing (sp?) what our optimal play is we need to look at how we play our entire range.(Renton, if your opponents expect you to bet regardless, do they float you alot? Do you fire many second barrels with air?)

What do we do if we hold AK/TPTK on the same flop? What about air? I'm thinking that mixing lead, c/r, c/c with TPTK, mixing lead, c/f with air, and mixing c/c, c/r with KK might be a good way to keep villains guessing while maximizing value.

Thoughts?

I'm gonna go ahead and *bump* this a little as I think there is more to this discussion. Perhaps a new thread is more appropriate but meh.

:)

betting the flop with KK when the flop is Axx is usually bad. in th example in the original post, its bad too. the 'KK with an ace!' thread explains it all, reraised pot or not.

worst hijack ever?

I minraise to gain information or to enlarge the pot with my big hand. Never to bluff, because the min-raise is an extreme value bet that is meant to be called.

Some donk last night min raised my river bet when I had TPGK after I was leading each street. He had 33.

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Originally Posted by BankItDrew

I minraise to gain information...

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information is overrated

You're overrated.

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Originally Posted by BankItDrew

You're overrated.

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:D