Thoughts on KK/QQ All-In Pre-Flop

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08-09-2006, 01:38 AM
martindcx1e

Thoughts on KK/QQ All-In Pre-Flop

ok so i've been wondering something lately about getting all-in pre-flop w/ KK & QQ. assume full stacks here and $100NL. say hero is on CO with QQ. villain is UTG and raises to $4. everyone folds to hero who raises to $12. villain pushes for $88 more. without a read that villain likes to get AI here with stuff like AK/JJ etc. the general consensus is usually to fold and wait for a better spot (Right?) if so then what is so different when hero holds KK in this spot as well? he folds QQ because he fears AA/KK. does he not fear the same range anymore when he has KK? should he not be more afraid of AA now since he is holding KK? am i thinking too much here or what? even if villain's range is AA/KK/QQ it's still not good enough odds to call in this spot is it since hero is getting < 2:1? is something wrong with me?
08-09-2006, 01:58 AM
Rockymv

Depends whether this is 6max or FR. For me, in 6max, against an unknown 100NL player, the range I'm afraid of in this spot with QQ is not KK+, it's QQ+, AK. Obv KK stacks up much better against this range than QQ. If you're convinced about the KK+ range for your opponent, then you should fold KK just like you would QQ.
08-09-2006, 02:09 AM
martindcx1e

i'm talking about full ring sorry. what about the situation in my first post if you think villain's range is AA-QQ? KK is 50% vs that range but is getting less than 2:1 the way that hand plays out. if there's lots of dead money things change of course, but that's not usually the case i don't think.
08-09-2006, 02:19 AM
Rockymv

In FR, against a player that's truly unknown, I'd still have a hard time laying down KK. I think in this spot the onus rests on showing that his range is only KK+. It's harder for me to assume that his 3bet ai range is only KK+ than it is to assume that his range is QQ+.

Against a known player that is anywhere close to tight/passive, it's an easy fold.

Others know way more than me though, so let them chime in.
08-09-2006, 02:22 AM
martindcx1e

so do you call in that spot if you think villain's range is QQ+?
08-09-2006, 02:28 AM
Rockymv

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

so do you call in that spot if you think villain's range is QQ+?

Since KK is dead even against that range, any dead money at all makes it an easy call.

Of course, that doesn't take into account times when you think AA is significantly more likely than QQ.
08-09-2006, 02:29 AM
martindcx1e

well it's nice to hear the 1st response isn't "you idiot, never fold KK noob!"
08-09-2006, 02:54 AM
Rockymv

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

well it's nice to hear the 1st response isn't "you idiot, never fold KK noob!"

Some people think that, but I think there are definitely certain times when it should be pretty easy to lay down KK pf.
08-09-2006, 02:29 PM
martindcx1e

i'm surprised there aren't more replies to this
08-09-2006, 04:30 PM
Rockymv

yep, it's pretty much you and me in this thread.
08-09-2006, 05:17 PM
martindcx1e

make yourself at home
08-09-2006, 06:30 PM
Rockymv

I plan on it.
08-09-2006, 06:51 PM
Fnord

AA/KK/QQ all-in is just a simple form of the general problem of what you're going to felt.

With nothing in the pot, you'd be a fool to be the first to open without the nuts.

With very little in the pot, we start to be careful with 2nd and 3rd nut hands.

This is correct play, however our opponents often don't play well, so we enter the realm of exploitive play. Felting QQ+ 200bb deep is certainly a mistake, except when it's exploiting an even bigger mistake of an opponent's much wider felting range.
08-10-2006, 03:47 PM
KingLizard

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockymv

In FR, against a player that's truly unknown, I'd still have a hard time laying down KK. I think in this spot the onus rests on showing that his range is only KK+. It's harder for me to assume that his 3bet ai range is only KK+ than it is to assume that his range is QQ+.

Against a known player that is anywhere close to tight/passive, it's an easy fold.

Others know way more than me though, so let them chime in.

First hand at this table so obviously no reads. Figured villain had QQ or AA (I discounted the flush as a possibility because the odds of hitting are so slim) so as Fnord says "let's gambool".

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.50 NL (real money), hand #829,749,420
Table Palm Springs, 9 Aug 2006 8:28 PM ET

Seat 1: DirkGently42 ($17.15 in chips)
Seat 2: Pokerjocky ($10.75 in chips)
Seat 3: Villain ($21.00 in chips)
Seat 4: shtraf ($19.60 in chips)
Seat 5: BkynPlague ($26.60 in chips)
Seat 7: aixers ($17.60 in chips)
Seat 8: catch16 ($15.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Hero [ :ks: :kd: ] ($25.00 in chips)
Seat 10: gusterson77 ($21.90 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
Pokerjocky posts blind ($0.15), Villain posts blind ($0.25), Hero posts blind ($0.25).

PRE-FLOP
shtraf folds, BkynPlague folds, aixers folds, catch16 folds, Hero bets $1.50, gusterson77 calls $1.75, DirkGently42 folds, Pokerjocky folds, Villain bets $5, Hero calls $3.50, gusterson77 calls $3.50.

FLOP [board cards :9h: :jh: :2h: ]
Villain bets $15.75 and is all-in, Hero calls $15.75, gusterson77 folds.

TURN [board cards :9h: :jh: :2h: :3c: ]

RIVER [board cards :9h: :jh: :2h: :3c: :th: ]

SHOWDOWN
Villain shows [ AD,AC ]
Hero shows [ KS,KD ]
Villain wins $46.90.
08-10-2006, 03:51 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingLizard

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockymv

In FR, against a player that's truly unknown, I'd still have a hard time laying down KK. I think in this spot the onus rests on showing that his range is only KK+. It's harder for me to assume that his 3bet ai range is only KK+ than it is to assume that his range is QQ+.

Against a known player that is anywhere close to tight/passive, it's an easy fold.

Others know way more than me though, so let them chime in.

First hand at this table so obviously no reads. Figured villain had QQ or AA (I discounted the flush as a possibility because the odds of hitting are so slim) so as Fnord says "let's gambool".

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.50 NL (real money), hand #829,749,420
Table Palm Springs, 9 Aug 2006 8:28 PM ET

Seat 1: DirkGently42 ($17.15 in chips)
Seat 2: Pokerjocky ($10.75 in chips)
Seat 3: Villain ($21.00 in chips)
Seat 4: shtraf ($19.60 in chips)
Seat 5: BkynPlague ($26.60 in chips)
Seat 7: aixers ($17.60 in chips)
Seat 8: catch16 ($15.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Hero [ :ks: :kd: ] ($25.00 in chips)
Seat 10: gusterson77 ($21.90 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
Pokerjocky posts blind ($0.15), Villain posts blind ($0.25), Hero posts blind ($0.25).

PRE-FLOP
shtraf folds, BkynPlague folds, aixers folds, catch16 folds, Hero bets $1.50, gusterson77 calls $1.75, DirkGently42 folds, Pokerjocky folds, Villain bets $5, Hero calls $3.50, gusterson77 calls $3.50.

FLOP [board cards :9h: :jh: :2h: ]
Villain bets $15.75 and is all-in, Hero calls $15.75, gusterson77 folds.

TURN [board cards :9h: :jh: :2h: :3c: ]

RIVER [board cards :9h: :jh: :2h: :3c: :th: ]

SHOWDOWN
Villain shows [ AD,AC ]
Hero shows [ KS,KD ]
Villain wins $46.90.

alot changes when you're only playing for 42 BB's.
08-10-2006, 05:12 PM
KingLizard

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

alot changes when you're only playing for 42 BB's.

My bad ... for some reason, Poker Tracker imports my 25NL hands as 50NL. So this was actually 84 BB's.
08-10-2006, 09:28 PM
Strung

Here was an interesting hand I posted awhile back involving KK deepstacked at $100NL. Would you push this preflop or do you want to see a flop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strung

No stats on villian. My read is pretty much every push he's had the nuts or close. Do you play this different? How about pre-flop? I thought about the call. I had position on him as well. Was it a weak fold? To me it just smelled like aces.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($93.80)
Hero ($223.90)
MP2 ($95.55)
MP3 ($201.36)
CO ($33.40)
Button ($88.75)
SB ($231.80)
BB ($224.50)
UTG ($89.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, 5 folds, BB raises to $29, Hero calls $26.

Flop: ($60.50) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB calls $194.50 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $255
08-10-2006, 09:40 PM
mcatdog

People go all-in preflop with AK more often than you think they do. Even solid players do it sometimes if they think you're trying to push them around. If you have QQ, that doesn't matter as much because the all-in pusher is usually either a coinflip or a huge favorite against you making it an easy fold. If you have KK, there's a much bigger chance that you're a heavy favorite over him so you should usually call.

The advice to never fold KK preflop is garbage for lazy thinkers. Some people are such nits that they'll have AA every time. You need to know the player really well though.
08-10-2006, 10:17 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

People go all-in preflop with AK more often than you think they do. Even solid players do it sometimes if they think you're trying to push them around. If you have QQ, that doesn't matter as much because the all-in pusher is usually either a coinflip or a huge favorite against you making it an easy fold. If you have KK, there's a much bigger chance that you're a heavy favorite over him so you should usually call.

The advice to never fold KK preflop is garbage for lazy thinkers. Some people are such nits that they'll have AA every time. You need to know the player really well though.

a player will have to show me that they go AI pf with AK before i suspect it. also, it's not about whether they have AA every time. if it's reasonable to think their range is QQ+ then you and your KK are 50% to win. i usually don't enjoy flipping a coin for my stack in a ring game. i think auto-shoving and auto-calling off your stack with KK no matter what is lazy thinking.
08-10-2006, 10:41 PM
Greedo017

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

if it's reasonable to think their range is QQ+ then you and your KK are 50% to win. i usually don't enjoy flipping a coin for my stack in a ring game. i think auto-shoving and auto-calling off your stack with KK no matter what is lazy thinking.

me and laeelin made this point like 6 months ago and everyone jumped on us for being stupid, but it is very true. like it or not, vs. a lot of people in full ring games, KK vs 3&4bet's preflop is not getting the best of things a significant enough amount to be worth paying attention to it and folding when appropriate.
08-11-2006, 12:14 AM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

me and laeelin made this point like 6 months ago and everyone jumped on us for being stupid, but it is very true. like it or not, vs. a lot of people in full ring games, KK vs 3&4bet's preflop is not getting the best of things a significant enough amount to be worth paying attention to it and folding when appropriate.

agreed. i think it's odd how most of us tend to give players credit for big hands post-flop until shown otherwise, but don't give the same credit pre-flop.