4 and 2 rule...Is this right?

About 2 weeks ago I was reading my bathroom material (The Little Green Book) and I read this section about a 4 and 2 rule. Which states that if you multiply the amount of outs you have by 4 on the flop and 2 on the turn you can get a quick percentage of making your hand. So, without even thinking about it I try it out and WOW I can make a lot of calls I wouldn't normally be able to do.

Just today I'm wondering about this system because I start losing some money due to a lot of chasing. Well, okay here is an example:

Say I have 4 outs(gut shot straight draw).
On the flop:

Gordon method - 4 x 4 = 16. 16% chance of hitting my gut shot.
Outs/rest of deck - 4/47 = 8.5. 8.5% chance of hitting my gut shot.
Ratio - 4:47 = 11. 11:1 on hitting my gutshot.

16% and 8.5% is a huge diffrence. Now when I realized this I was confused. Could Phil Gordon's system be messed up?

If my math is wrong above please correct me, and inform me on how this is done. Thanks.


-aytopper

4 outs for your gutshot

4x4=16% to hit over turn+river (with 2 cards coming)
4x2=8% to hit on the turn (or the river, so with 1 card coming)

So if you are using the ratio method you would divide it by 2 on the flop and nothing on the turn?

flop: 4/47 - 11:1 - 2/11 - about 6:1?
turn: 4/46 - 11:1.

This correct?

Horrible rule, pay no attention to it, whoever wrote this should be seriously injured. That is all.

Aytopper, you are way over thinking this.

If you have one out:
1/47 = 0.021 ~= 2%

So with 1 card to come (on the turn) and x outs:
2*x

With 2 cards to come (on the flop, assuming a free river) and x outs:
2*2*x = 4*x

Converting percentages to odds is a different question. I didn't look at your math. If you think there is a problem there are quite a few good posts about this (several by me).

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Horrible rule, pay no attention to it, whoever wrote this should be seriously injured. That is all.

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

To anyone reading this post. If there is a math post by someone with less than 100 (maybe even 250) posts be very wary.

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It's just a quick way to find out roughly what your chances are of hitting your outs on the flop and turn. It would be useful if you are in the middle of a hand and don't know the odds off the top of your head and don't feel like getting out a calculator.. or using your brain. :lol:

aytopper, the problem with the 4x rule is that it is only really relevant when you or your opponent is all-in on the flop, because then there are guaranteed to be no further bets on the turn (or river).

If both players still have decent stacks, you can't follow the 4x rule because the villain may well make another bet on the turn. So you need to think of good odds as following the 2x rule on both the flop and the turn.

(then, of course, implied odds become relevant - but that's another topic)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Horrible rule, pay no attention to it, whoever wrote this should be seriously injured. That is all.

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Care to give any reasons with that? Or are you just spouting for no reason at all?

I dont know if you play holdem at all but multiplying the number of outs by 2 gives a very good estimate of the percentage chance you have of hitting on the next card.
If you have a draw with ALOT of outs, (i.e. 10 or more) then the 2x rule starts to overestimate but even then its only a couple of percent over and in a no limit game implied odds will almost always make up for that.

So to clarify.

you have an OESD for 8 outs on the flop.

you multiply your 8 outs by 2 for a 8*2 = 16% chance of hitting on the turn, and another 16% on the river.

This compares pretty favorably to the exact answer of 8/47 = 0.1702 = 17.02%

forget ratio's, they suck.. just use percentages

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Horrible rule, pay no attention to it, whoever wrote this should be seriously injured. That is all.

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ignore this post

This is generally what goes on in MY mind...

(flop) multiply your outs by 4, then subtract 1 for every out after 8 outs. IE a flush draw generally has 9 outs. 9x4=36, minus the 1 out over 8 = 35.

(turn) cards that make your hand divided by cards that don't.

So for example an OESD has 8 outs divided by 47 unseen cards = approximately 1/6 chance to hit.

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Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Horrible rule, pay no attention to it, whoever wrote this should be seriously injured. That is all.

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ignore this post

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Thank you Lukie. After reading that post I felt like a moron because I rely on heavily on this rule. After reading the response of such a handsome and well respected poker player like you though I'm back to feeling like I can conquer the poker world.

:)

It is a horrible rule cause all of you players are looking for the easy way out. You know what beginners should do, learn the game. Not look for an easy way out to calculate odds b/c it is somewhat difficult. If you spend the time assessing these situations, getting the damn calculator out and realizing the exact numbers then you will give yourself a better understanding of the game. Oh, and its not a horrible rule? Give me the odds for a gutshot, they are not 8% with one card to come, more like just under 10%. Last time I checked it wasn't 12.5 to 1 to make 4 outs, it was 10.5 to 1. Learn the game, do the math yourself, stop looking for an easy way out, and improve your play in the process. Oh yea, and the thing about math from someone with posts under 100, how about someone who double majored in accounting and calculus? Just a hunch, but I think I know how to work a calculator. If you want good exact odds than stop looking for the easy way out. I thought the ideas of this forum was to improve play, not to present a wishy washy idea of what good play could be. I do regret calling this a "horrible" rule. It is not that horrible, it is just not that great either. If I offened anyone I apologize.

P.S.-the idea that you can make more calls using the method than before is ludicrous. This method actually robs you of some percentages, as I presented before with the gutshot. This methods allows you to call only 8% of the time while you should be able to call 1/10.5 times, or roughly 9.5% of the times. My suggestion for everyone, get out the calculator or visit a site with a drawing chart and study it. At the very least you will be thinking more about your play and less about how to make this game simple. It's a complex game and will stay that way.

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with this rule. When your sitting at a table and facing a bet, you dont care if your math is off by 1%... Myself, i prefer putting everything in a ratio, IE you have 4 to a flush, chances on the next card you hit your flush is 4:1, i think its easier to calculate pot odds doing this.

First off, settle down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Oh yea, and the thing about math from someone with posts under 100, how about someone who double majored in accounting and calculus? Just a hunch, but I think I know how to work a calculator.

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Double major, very impressive.

I made the statement about 100 posts because people post inaccurate math all the time. The FTR experienced people either don't post math, or know what they are talking about. If you don't believe me browse through the beginner archive.

It also isn't helpful to post:

Quote:

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pay no attention to it, whoever wrote this should be seriously injured. That is all.

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without explaining why you believe so.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

It is a horrible rule cause all of you players are looking for the easy way out. You know what beginners should do, learn the game. Not look for an easy way out to calculate odds b/c it is somewhat difficult.

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It's not the easy way out. Try explaining to someone how to take 4 outs, or 16% and turn it into 5.5:1 in their head without the benefit of a calculator. Does it really matter if it is actually 5.3 or 5.7?

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Give me the odds for a gutshot, they are not 8% with one card to come, more like just under 10%. Last time I checked it wasn't 12.5 to 1 to make 4 outs, it was 10.5 to 1.

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4/46 = 8.696%

8% => 1:11.5
8.7% => 1:10.5
not a big difference

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

This methods allows you to call only 8% of the time while you should be able to call 1/10.5 times, or roughly 9.5% of the times.

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1:10.5 != 1/10.5

Odds, 1 time I win, 10.5 times I loose.
Probability, 1 time out of (1 + 10.5) = 11.5 times I loose.

Wait a second... At what school can you get a major in calculus?

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It is a horrible rule cause all of you players are looking for the easy way out. You know what beginners should do, learn the game. Not look for an easy way out to calculate odds b/c it is somewhat difficult. If you spend the time assessing these situations, getting the damn calculator out and realizing the exact numbers then you will give yourself a better understanding of the game. Oh, and its not a horrible rule? Give me the odds for a gutshot, they are not 8% with one card to come, more like just under 10%. Last time I checked it wasn't 12.5 to 1 to make 4 outs, it was 10.5 to 1. Learn the game, do the math yourself, stop looking for an easy way out, and improve your play in the process. Oh yea, and the thing about math from someone with posts under 100, how about someone who double majored in accounting and calculus? Just a hunch, but I think I know how to work a calculator. If you want good exact odds than stop looking for the easy way out. I thought the ideas of this forum was to improve play, not to present a wishy washy idea of what good play could be. I do regret calling this a "horrible" rule. It is not that horrible, it is just not that great either. If I offened anyone I apologize.

P.S.-the idea that you can make more calls using the method than before is ludicrous. This method actually robs you of some percentages, as I presented before with the gutshot. This methods allows you to call only 8% of the time while you should be able to call 1/10.5 times, or roughly 9.5% of the times. My suggestion for everyone, get out the calculator or visit a site with a drawing chart and study it. At the very least you will be thinking more about your play and less about how to make this game simple. It's a complex game and will stay that way.

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omg roflicious.
If i didnt know better id be flaming or something equally as fun.
Its simple, the 4 and 2 rule is a rough guestimation of yur percentage to win the pot. It does not need to be exact on each street. The 4 and 2 rule is close enough for our purposes
Arguably if you get a to call a bet that is 10% of the pot on the turn with a gutshot you'd take it anyway, because of other factors like implied odds whereas if you were calling a 40% bet you clearly would not.
If you want to argue over the 2% at 100nl or something like that then be my guest, but thats dumb imo.
Its a guestimate, treat it as such. and its not 'dumb'

bigspenda, If there is a call you'd make with a 9.5% chance of hitting but not with an 8.5% chance, you're not doing it right. I'd honestly say, the time you waste punching in on a calculator to find an exact % probably loses you more money because you're not spending that time thinking about what the best play is.

The time I spend determining correct plays is well spent. Although you're right, if I were laying 12.5 to 1 make my hand and only getting 11.5 to 1 pot odds I would be a profitable poker player. Oh wait, I wouldn't. You can insert you line about implied odds here...

The best way to start this game is to be rooted in the math. From there you can play around a bit, but for god's sake, it's not rocket science, stop looking for an easy way out.

One final note, telling ppl its ok to play poorly should be the last thing this site is all about. This person wanted to know in the 4 and 2 rule was right. I showed it was not. It may not be way off, and my judgement may have been too harsh, but it is not correct. I leave no gray area. It is either yes or no, and in this case it was NO.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

The time I spend determining correct plays is well spent. Although you're right, if I were laying 12.5 to 1 make my hand and only getting 11.5 to 1 pot odds I would be a profitable poker player. Oh wait, I wouldn't. You can insert you line about implied odds here...

The best way to start this game is to be rooted in the math. From there you can play around a bit, but for god's sake, it's not rocket science, stop looking for an easy way out.

One final note, telling ppl its ok to play poorly should be the last thing this site is all about. This person wanted to know in the 4 and 2 rule was right. I showed it was not. It may not be way off, and my judgement may have been too harsh, but it is not correct. I leave no gray area. It is either yes or no, and in this case it was NO.

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im gona say it and get into trouble, but sir you are an idiot.

I prefer donkey, haven't heard idiot before, it's a new one to add to the list.

i must agree with miffed. 1% differences arent going to matter when making a call. And no, i dont beleive you do need to be deeply rooted in the math. If all you could do was this 4-2 rule and count outs, you could still be a winning player. So you acknowledge your a 'donkey' yet you still redicule players that arent 100% accurate on their math? id love to hear you say this to a group of pros.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I prefer donkey, haven't heard idiot before, it's a new one to add to the list.

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Look, he took the harsh critisism and moved on. No nead to turn this in to a flame war (which typically would have already happened).

Have a llama:
http://icons.iconator.com/91/ICONATO...84468c5d0e.gif http://icons.iconator.com/91/ICONATO...84468c5d0e.gif http://icons.iconator.com/91/ICONATO...84468c5d0e.gif http://icons.iconator.com/91/ICONATO...84468c5d0e.gif

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

Wait a second... At what school can you get a major in calculus?

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Damn you beat me to that...

also, accounting is not a major.

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Originally Posted by Greedo017

bigspenda, If there is a call you'd make with a 9.5% chance of hitting but not with an 8.5% chance, you're not doing it right.

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QFT

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Oh, and its not a horrible rule? Give me the odds for a gutshot, they are not 8% with one card to come, more like just under 10%.

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I majored in Zoology as an undegrad, not calculus or any other branch of mathematics so please bear with me and pardon my stupidity.

I calculate the odds of catching a gutshot with one card to come as 4/46 = 8.695%. Unless I am mistaken, 8.7% is not just under 10%, but actually closer to 8%.

Again, I wasn't a math major so I might have mistakenly taken the wrong derivative or accidentally included a hanging participle when I worked it out. If you could please explain how the odds are actually closer to 10%, a donk like me would be forever greatful.

P.S. Welcome to the boards asshole.

dnuts,

Can you give me some advice on how I can hit sets more often? They are a lot of fun to play but no matter what I do, I just can't seem to EVER hit them. Any advice would be appreciated.

thanks,

Lukie

It's not like you can accurately predict how often someone is gonna fold, exact hand ranges, just how much your implied odds are, etc.. so a 1% margin on pot odds really doesn't matter all that much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lukie

dnuts,

Can you give me some advice on how I can hit sets more often? They are a lot of fun to play but no matter what I do, I just can't seem to EVER hit them. Any advice would be appreciated.

thanks,

Lukie

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Quit being on ten 2/4 tables every time I try to start a session. If you do that I guarantee you'll hit sets at least 4x your current rate.

9*

Actually, 9.09 is closer to 10 than it is to 8, and thats the worst way you can figure out a gutshot draw. Most would figure it this way, 4/42 for 9.5%. If I need to convert this to any other language just ask, I would be more than happy to.

Odds would be good/bad. Not good/total
-not sure if I can make this any clearer...

This figures the odds of a helpful card coming against a non-helpful card coming. Maybe this is my fault, this whole argument was started over 1.5%. But I was just trying to prove the point that poker is a bigger game than 4 times your outs after the flop. Your last post has proven however that 1 or 2 percent does matter, as you seemed to flip out over .5 of a percent I feel vindicated in my previous posts. So which one is it Nuts? Does 1% matter or doesn't it? If you could please respond b/c I fear you have confused the entire board with mixed messgaes.

Also, asshole is a bit harsh, I can take idiot but do not expect me to take being called an asshole lightly. After I was bombarded for my opinion on a forum I thought I took it well, however, asshole was certainly unecessary. If you would like a place for open expression maybe we need to leave the namecalling at home, or in the third grade, either way, this isn't the place for it.

One final note, is anyone from the states? You mean to tell me you do not think schools offer degrees in either accounting or calculus? I graduated from Valparaiso double majoring in Accounting and Mathematics Education with a focus on Calculus.

So there ya have it, my last post. It seems most of you are in your own little boys clubs with you inside jokes and utter defense of each other comments. I will thank the guys in the limit hold'em section as they have been unbiased and helpful. As to the rest of you, play well.

is this actually an argument over 1%?

i think it started because anyone who uses the 4 2 rule doesnt understand the game well enough, and you need to know the odds for all outs done the the thousandth of percentage.

dammit I knew I was missing something.

bigspenda,

Hidden in your very harsh sounding ramblings, it seems like you actually stumbed onto a few reasonable points (of which the whole 1% mattering in a real hand is not one of).

But it absolutely defies logic and common sense that somebody who claims to have the mathematic education that you do still doesn't understand the difference between fractions and odds.

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Actually, 9.09 is closer to 10 than it is to 8, and thats the worst way you can figure out a gutshot draw. Most would figure it this way, 4/42 for 9.5%. If I need to convert this to any other language just ask, I would be more than happy to.

Odds would be good/bad. Not good/total
-not sure if I can make this any clearer...

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4/42 is not what we are looking for.
4/46 is. You may want to recalculate this, for whatever it's worth (not much).

Although I would like you to convert it to proper mathematic language, if possible. Because it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

Odds would be good:bad, I'd expect someone who graduated with degrees in calculus and accounting to know this?? wtf??

I'm done. Not worth my time.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Most would figure it this way, 4/42 for 9.5%. If I need to convert this to any other language just ask, I would be more than happy to.

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Swahili please. It's just not making sense to me in English.

4 cards help you. 42 cards do not. 4 + 42 = 46. 4/46 = 8.7%

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Originally Posted by mb2447

also, accounting is not a major.

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O RLY.

You can get a master's at Ohio State.

Quote:

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Also, asshole is a bit harsh, I can take idiot but do not expect me to take being called an asshole lightly. After I was bombarded for my opinion on a forum I thought I took it well, however, asshole was certainly unecessary. If you would like a place for open expression maybe we need to leave the namecalling at home, or in the third grade, either way, this isn't the place for it.

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QFT. There is no need for name calling.

So bigspenda are you saying you calculate exact odds\percentage in your head with more than one card to come? Someone pushes all in on the flop and you have a gutshot + flushdraw which gives you 12 outs and you solve this equation (1-(35/47*34/46)) in your head? Im guessing you dont multitable then?

The 4 and 2 rule is a pretty good approximation of your odds (especially when you correct for outs more than 8) and is very useful when you have to calculate odds on the spot.

Phil Gordon uses the 4+2 rule as talked about in the OP's thread and
http://www.bloguez.com/uploads/Pasqua_2400-lg.jpg
Is all I got to say

OK, b/c of all the misinformation everyone has given I will now clear it up. This comes directly from the man himself in multiple books. The guru, Sklansky says with 4 outs and 1 card to come the odds one is laying it 10.5 to 1, or 42 to 4 or 9.5%

i dont think ive ever done this outside commune but

:lock: :lock: :lock: :lock:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

OK, b/c of all the misinformation everyone has given I will now clear it up. This comes directly from the man himself in multiple books. The guru, Sklansky says with 4 outs and 1 card to come the odds one is laying it 10.5 to 1, or 42 to 4 or 9.5%

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42:4 = 4/46 = 8.69%, your odds are right but your conversion to a percentage is wrong.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

OK, b/c of all the misinformation everyone has given I will now clear it up. This comes directly from the man himself in multiple books. The guru, Sklansky says with 4 outs and 1 card to come the odds one is laying it 10.5 to 1, or 42 to 4 or 9.5%

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Did you read any other posts?

This thread is amazing (Fundamental Theorem anyone?).

he should have majored in probability instead of calculus

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

he should have majored in odds instead of calculus

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FYP

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Phil Gordon uses the 4+2 rule as talked about in the OP's thread and
http://www.bloguez.com/uploads/Pasqua_2400-lg.jpg
Is all I got to say

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Too bad Phil Gordon has never won a WSOP bracelet.

he's made a dvd though.

I know but I couldn't find any cool WPT stuff in a short time. Wasn't sure anyone would notice.

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

I know but I couldn't find any cool WPT stuff in a short time. Wasn't sure anyone would notice.

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On a web forum where every tiny mistake is ruthlessly torn to shreds. That's a mistake sir.

Your right. I'm wrong. :oops:

good god what happened here - Does the original author even look here anymore? How did the damn math nerds get so nutty about this - The 4,2 rule is an OUTSTANDING tool to use for quick odds calculations...Its pretty close and I think the most important thing is that its good for beginners to get a real good understanding of what things to draw for and what to avoid - Its like me saying don't draw for cards in small pots, and draw for damn near any nut draw in a big pot (if it costs you little in comparison) - What is wrong with people and why r u so uptight about .456% points??? Are you looking for an excuse to fold more? If the odds are that close, you should most likely fold - but a LOT of the time the quick calculations make the odds pretty damn clear - Its either an obvious call or an obvious fold -

who the hell cares about .034% points? Fuck people - its a beginners rule and it works - This is even posted in the beginners section and you get into an argument about 1/2 of a percent? Wowsers....

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

good god what happened here - Does the original author even look here anymore?

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I was going to post something like that:
"So, aytopper. That answer your question?"

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Originally Posted by Limp

How did the damn math nerds get so nutty about this - The 4,2 rule is an OUTSTANDING tool to use for quick odds calculations...Its pretty close

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Umm, if you read the posts you'll see it's:
bigspenda73 vs (FTR - bigspenda73)
(2-4 sucks) vs (2-4 goot)

Hey spenda, you figure this out?

Yea, I figured it out now, I mean, it's off by at least .5% most of the time, I'd rather just use my bigass brain to be exact.

Sportfan73 (9:04:59 PM): lol luv that thread
swiggidy (9:05:11 PM): yeah
swiggidy (9:05:15 PM): it's funny now
Sportfan73 (9:05:19 PM): back in the day
Sportfan73 (9:05:20 PM): lolz
Sportfan73 (9:05:34 PM): 4 and 2
Sportfan73 (9:05:36 PM): still sucks
swiggidy (9:05:45 PM): I had gotten into a math argument like the previous week and gotten pissed off
Sportfan73 (9:05:57 PM): were we arguing in that thread?
swiggidy (9:05:59 PM): that was back when I was a post whore
Sportfan73 (9:06:03 PM): i dont even want to re-read it
swiggidy (9:06:18 PM): yeah, sort of
Sportfan73 (9:06:21 PM): lol
Sportfan73 (9:06:25 PM): that was like my first month at FTR
swiggidy (9:06:26 PM): but everyone else was jumping on you hard
Sportfan73 (9:06:37 PM): I always wondered if it would resurface
swiggidy (9:06:41 PM): yeah, I remember
Sportfan73 (9:06:43 PM): i think I just make a total ass of myself
swiggidy (9:06:47 PM): haha
swiggidy (9:06:52 PM): still do
Sportfan73 (9:06:57 PM): true dat
Sportfan73 (9:07:01 PM): 4 and 2
Sportfan73 (9:07:15 PM): i say run the screen to LT


BTW, has Phil Gordon won anything ever?

this is an awesome thread. i missed it the first time around, thanks for bumping.

Yes, Phil Gordon has won, ever.

And Harrington also mentions the $ and 2 rule. And he too, like so many others, denies the need for a lot of maths so I guess calculus just ain't required.

WSOP
Main Event in 2001 and finished 4th, winning $400,000.
In 2002, he made two more WSOP final tables, finishing 6th in the $2,000 Pot Limit hold 'em event and 3rd in the $2,500 Omaha Hi/Lo Split event.

At the 2005 WSOP, he finished 3rd in the $1,500 No Limit Texas hold 'em Shootout event.

WPT
In March 2004 he knocked out two players at once to win the WPT's Bay 101 Shooting Stars tournament.

OTHER
In 2002 he won the professional division of the first UltimateBet Aruba tournament and also won the Full Tilt Poker Poker Championship at Red Rock, beating Roland De Wolfe heads-up and taking down a purse of $600,000.

To my memory, he has made other final tables, including ESPN $1000 and has been unlucky quite often - such as losing AA at one WSOP final table to 10 10. Had he won, he would've been a massive chip leader with just 4 players left.

Haha hilarious.

i may be the village idiot, but it took me FOREVER to realize WHEN this thread started.

i was shocked at all the ppl in this forum, who rarely are seen anymore, and the attitudes/flames being fired.

i thought, "wow, just like the good ole days." then realized....

it WAS from the good ole days. lol.

I rather enjoyed it and did learn a bit: I was glad to know I am not the only one that might panic trying
1-( ( 34/47 )*( 34/46 ) )
in a pinch :roll:

But the absolute quote of the century was well worth the effort

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Umm, if you read the posts you'll see it's:
bigspenda73 vs (FTR - bigspenda73)

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an algorithm worth remembering and can be done in my head in any situation :wink:

The content of this post reminds me of the time I fired my accountant for spending $125 of my money @ $37 per hour looking for $2.74 - bean counters!

The 4 and 2 rule works much better, or at least applies much more often, in Limit than in NL games. In Limit you are drawing , and staying in draws, a lot more often than in NL (IMO).

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Originally Posted by arborman

The 4 and 2 rule works much better, or at least applies much more often, in Limit than in NL games. In Limit you are drawing , and staying in draws, a lot more often than in NL (IMO).

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False. Equally applicable.

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

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Originally Posted by arborman

The 4 and 2 rule works much better, or at least applies much more often, in Limit than in NL games. In Limit you are drawing , and staying in draws, a lot more often than in NL (IMO).

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False. Equally applicable.

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I guess what I meant is that in Limit, or at least the low limits I play, the pot tends to have enough people in it that you are more often actually able to use a rule like 4/2. My (admittedly limited) experience in NL is that pot size and bets tend to make most decisions either flop or preflop decisions, and bet size tends to mean draws have fewer opportunities to call profitably. Not that they can never call, but that it is less often a good idea.

But I'm a LHE player, so I don't know jack about NL except how to get stacked the few times I've played there.

lol I was a limit nooooob when this thread happened. I was also just a polite, humble, and thoughtful as I am today.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I graduated from Valparaiso double majoring in Accounting and Mathematics Education with a focus on Calculus.

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God that's like the weakest math degree in the history of kindergarden

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Originally Posted by arborman

The 4 and 2 rule works much better, or at least applies much more often, in Limit than in NL games. In Limit you are drawing , and staying in draws, a lot more often than in NL (IMO).

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i see what you are trying to say, but math is math. period.

however, one thing you CAN do in limit is better predict how much is going in on the turn. this would make the 4 part of the 4/2 easier to calculate.

it is still better, though, to use the 2 half of it and re-calculate your odds on each street.

LOL, I skimmed through this thread. Don't really get, and I'm also probably too lazy to follow, but it doesn't matter.

My rule (or, better said, rule I follow): 1 out = 2,5% on river.
double it on turn.

Once you know your percentages, you can get pretty precise odds, assuming you can divide and multiply properly.


Obviously, this is precise on heads-up hands. Some tweaking is needed when multi-pot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

My rule (or, better said, rule I follow): 1 out = 2,5% on river.
double it on turn.

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It's 2%, not 2.5%. Hence 2/4 rule, not 2.5/5 rule.

Chopper's right about the limit thing. You can't use 4% if you're going to face another bet on the turn, which happens a lot in limit.

In NL you're not going to get explicit odds to call often on the flop, but you'll often have implied odds. You still need to know how to calculate this to determine if you're good or not.

I'm just amazed at all the furore.

The truth is, the 4 & 2 rule is very, very good. If this rule says yours odds are 16% but the maths say it's 15.7% then that is nothing to quibble over.

Up to about 13 outs it's very accurate (just look at the outs/odd charts and compare) and after 13 0uts your chips are gonna be going in regardless in most situations.

You don't have to use it. Or any other formula. Do what you want. Each to their own. But I believe that only a fool will argue it's validity: "this rule says the percentage is 32 but the correct answer, to 17 decimal places, is actually...."

haha i hated on spenda. Should probably get a t-shirt. The rule is still sexy btw.

meanies

cmon spenda, stop foolin around, being your old avatar back

Hey mod, this is very helpful and should be stickied

OMG..Now that's a shit storm some Noobie stured up!

oh hi something from 2 years ago that people won't realize

I'm finally a mod, so I get to lock this, when what I probably should be doing is abusing my power and binning it.