time to gambool?????

Villain was pretty solid TAG, his reraise told me AA/KK/AK/QQ, so figured what I was up against. Preflop call may be a bit loose, but I was looking exactly for the flop I got, and if i didn't get it, I was out of there. I figure I had 3 straight outs, 8 flush outs, plus one out to the straight flush....Do you gambool? I ran it through pokerstove and figure I had 40% equity after the flop....

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.50 NL (real money), hand #722,482,826
Table Entebbe, 15 Jul 2006 2:06 PM ET

Seat 1: mjschell [ KS,QS ] ($41.25 in chips)
Seat 2: CokeyRedBull ($21.85 in chips)
Seat 3: heila ($24.50 in chips)
Seat 4: DMartinez ($15.65 in chips)
Seat 5: coonja ($18.10 in chips)
Seat 7: ALB7844 ($24.45 in chips)
Seat 8: spitstickler ($28.30 in chips)
Seat 9: loandoctorx ($34.80 in chips)
Seat 10: ShadowKnows5 ($24.10 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
loandoctorx posts blind ($0.15), ShadowKnows5 posts blind ($0.25).

PRE-FLOP
mjschell bets $1, CokeyRedBull bets $3, heila folds, DMartinez folds, coonja folds, ALB7844 folds, spitstickler folds, loandoctorx folds, ShadowKnows5 folds, mjschell calls $2.

FLOP [board cards 10S,KC,9S ]
mjschell bets $4, CokeyRedBull bets $18.85 and is all-in, mjschell bites his lip andcalls $14.85.

TURN [board cards 10S,KC,9S,JD ]

RIVER [board cards 10S,KC,9S,JD,2S ]

SHOWDOWN
CokeyRedBull shows [ KD,KH ]
mjschell shows [ KS,QS ]
mjschell wins $43.60.

SUMMARY
Dealer: spitstickler
Pot: $44.10, (including rake: $0.50)
mjschell bets $21.85, collects $43.60, net $21.75
CokeyRedBull loses $21.85
heila loses $0
DMartinez loses $0
coonja loses $0
ALB7844 loses $0
spitstickler loses $0
loandoctorx loses $0.15
ShadowKnows5 loses $0.25

With that equity, yea, gambool.

fold preflop, not close. KQs plays pretty bad to QQ+, AK type range, and you're out of position to boot.

On the flop I'd probably c/r allin. You're not really concerned about giving a free card, you get the max out of QQ, and it's possible you can get him off AK.

Kinda hard to figure out how many outs you have b/c you don't know if your 2p/trips outs our good, he may have a redraw, etc. But you have a lot against his range, which is what's important :). Also, don't count the straight flush out as an out if you've already counted your flush and straight outs...

and by kqs plays pretty bad to a QQ+, AK type range, i mean it plays so horrendously awful it boggles my mind why you'd even consider it, especially given that you're out of position. :)

Being dominated 100% of the time sucks. Also, even if you outflop him and you're sure if it (rare), with a hand like KQs it's always going to be a very scary board. Ie QQx, KKx, KQx, AJT, etc.

Even if you know you are check/folding the flop if you don't pick up a power draw and you know you are against a high PP so it's easy to get away from? OOP sux I agree...


I counted the J spades as an out all by itself, that's why i said 8 flush outs and 3 str8 outs :wink:

Yeah, that draw enables you to play for stacks it's one of the best possible boards for KQs but long term most flops will be junk or K/Q high where overpairs and TPTK's pwn you by heads-up domination. Even with top two you can't be so confident, 2 possible sets in his range and AA isn't way behind, it has counterfeiting redraws like pairing 3rd card or runner runner pair.

It's one of the time where being a nit is a money-saver.

Sure, if you get in 40% equity with dead money its slightly +EV. But the problem is you aren't looking for slight +EV. You are looking to make up for the preflop loss and to pay off your implied odds. Getting all in as a coinflip doesn't even come close to making this up.

BTW check push is better than bet call.

whip over 87s here and youve done it right. KQ is murderd against a reraise preflop range.

You gambooled preflop so when you hit a good draw on the flop sure why not? After all poker is just a 100% gamble, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

whip over 87s here and youve done it right. KQ is murderd against a reraise preflop range.

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I disagree. Against this guy's range I'd RATHER have 87s then KQs, that seems fairly obvious, but it would still be a very poor call preflop.

ouch, i just peeked at the stack sizes.

you have your self a clear and present fold preflop there my friend. You can't even call profitably with a pocket pair, much less a suited connector.

could you elaborate? Factoring in stack sizes is something I need to work on. I had to call $2 dollars preflop and he had 9X that behind.

I do get the part about 87s vs QKs, KQ easily dominated and if you play 87, you are competing for different cards than he is.

Quote:

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I disagree. Against this guy's range I'd RATHER have 87s then KQs, that seems fairly obvious, but it would still be a very poor call preflop.

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We could argue this all day, ill just satisfy it with 'Ill agree to disagree on this point' (when he doesnt have only 50bbs behind)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cardsman1992

could you elaborate? Factoring in stack sizes is something I need to work on. I had to call $2 dollars preflop and he had 9X that behind.

I do get the part about 87s vs QKs, KQ easily dominated and if you play 87, you are competing for different cards than he is.

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5/10 rule:

If you are in position and looking to call a raise with a weak hand (suited connector, small pair) in order to exploit implied odds and your positional advantage, you have a clear call if the bet is less than 5% of the effective stack, a clear fold if its more than 10% of the effective stack, and between 5% and 10% is a judgement call (err toward caution when possible).

The 5/10 rule applies to unpaired drawing hands IN POSITION ONLY, and to paired hands in any position (since position is somewhat irrelevant when you flop a lock hand).



In otherwords, if you make a call like this with KQs, at least have position and deeper stacks. Even then its often hard to extract +EV.

Okay, so villain needed to have a stack as big as me to pull this off successfully. Right? AND I needed to be in position....

Also, one other question, check/push is better than bet/call because that might give me a touch of fold equity (unless he has the nuts on the flop, which he did), right? Meaning I might be able to push QQ/AK/AA off the hand?

Thanks....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cardsman1992

Okay, so villain needed to have a stack as big as me to pull this off successfully. Right? AND I needed to be in position....

Also, one other question, check/push is better than bet/call because that might give me a touch of fold equity (unless he has the nuts on the flop, which he did), right? Meaning I might be able to push QQ/AK/AA off the hand?

Thanks....

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if pots get this big its rarely ever good to call. Your either open pushing or c/r ing all in, or at least thats how i play it.
If you want your opponent to make a mistake or fold, then make them make the biggest ine as often in reraised pots nobody is folding (unless its clear you sucked out on the flop)

I think between the two, c/r all in is the one I like better....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

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I disagree. Against this guy's range I'd RATHER have 87s then KQs, that seems fairly obvious, but it would still be a very poor call preflop.

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We could argue this all day, ill just satisfy it with 'Ill agree to disagree on this point' (when he doesnt have only 50bbs behind)

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Ok so we're deeper.

Villain's range is QQ+, AK, give or take.

Why is KQs better then 87s?

I'll take 87s because it offers more drawing possibilities, and the rare time that we do outflop his range, it's not a shit scary board if he has something like TPTK or an overpair.

As far as the hand in discussion goes, either hand is a clear fold and it's not close, I don't see how that is debatable. They're about 80bb deep also.

If the guy is a 45/20, and you are in position, is it an okay PF call then?