C-betting

I am really bad at c-betting, I am having trouble deciding which flops to c-bet after making a PFR. I'll post a bunch of hands, and I would like to know which hands you would c-bet and why?


1.
No reads on villain

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($10)
Hero ($10.10)
MP3 ($4.30)
CO ($4.10)
Button ($6.35)
SB ($9.90)
BB ($5.95)
UTG ($11.15)
UTG+1 ($4.90)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.6, 3 folds, SB calls $0.55, 1 fold.

Flop: ($1.30) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero...

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2.
No reads

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($4.15)
MP2 ($12.35)
CO ($8.85)
Button ($11.50)
SB ($3.45)
BB ($4.10)
Hero ($10.05)
UTG+1 ($4)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.10.
Hero raises to $0.6, 3 folds, CO calls $0.60, 3 folds.

Flop: ($1.45) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero...

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3.
No reads

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($9.70)
MP2 ($8.35)
Hero ($10.95)
Button ($9.10)
SB ($1.80)
BB ($11.95)
UTG ($2.70)
UTG+1 ($3.90)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, 3 folds, MP1 calls $0.70.

Flop: ($2.10) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero...

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4.
No reads

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($9.90)
BB ($1.20)
Hero ($9.90)
MP1 ($22.10)
MP2 ($12.35)
CO ($9.95)
Button ($9.80)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
Hero raises to $0.6, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.60, 4 folds.

Flop: ($1.35) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero...

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5.
No reads

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($5.85)
SB ($4.70)
BB ($2.75)
UTG ($12.45)
UTG+1 ($9.30)
MP1 ($4.80)
Hero ($9.90)
CO ($10.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.5, 1 fold, Button calls $0.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($1.15) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero...

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6.
Villain is 35/5

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($32.95)
CO ($10.30)
Button ($9.20)
SB ($9.90)
Hero ($10)
UTG ($19.65)
UTG+1 ($8.90)
MP1 ($3.85)
MP2 ($18.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, MP3 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, SB completes, Hero raises to $0.8, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Button calls $0.70, SB folds.

Flop: ($1.90) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero...

1. Bets

2. Sometimes bets but not always.

3. Bets

4. Bets

5. Bets

6. Checks PF every time. As played, checks against unknown who probably limpcalled with a hand that beats 77, and that isn't going to be afraid of an ace on the flop.

Always c-bet in postion esp HU.Two way checked to vary between c-betting and checking.OOP HU vary between c-betting and checking.OOP 2-3 way check.

if you dont put your opponent to a decision then he/she will put you to one, so start betting.

1. yes
2. no
3. yes
4. yes
5. yes
6. no
-I dont like a raise OOP here especially with so many in the pot

1. Yes because of you made the pre-flop raise, you have only 1 opponent, you have position
2. Maybe, if it doesn't work I'm done with the hand. With no reads I probably limp 88 from UTG
3. Yes, see #1
4. Yes, If he calls, check/fold
5. Sometimes
6. No, someone calls you and two overcards come, you don't have position

So, I made these decisions because it's 10NL, some of the hands I'm sure would play quite different at higher levels. After I thought that I remembered something else. 10NL players will call down with all kinds of trash. It's better to play ABC poker and value bet everyone to death, than to get tricky with bluffs and what not.

Does opp's stack size change your c-betting pattern at all? If so, how?

if he's too short he'll push with anything feeling pot committed

if he's too deep he'll call with any draw or pair relying on implied odds to make it +ev

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

if he's too short he'll push with anything feeling pot committed

if he's too deep he'll call with any draw or pair relying on implied odds to make it +ev

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So c-bet less against these opponents?

yes

but against deep stacks (whom you are also deep with) c-bet with gutshots and bottom pair a lot, since you have the IO as well.

I follow a simple rule. Do not c-bet against 3 or more players. After that I live by the observation that "the flop has mostly likely not helped my opponent(s) as well until they tell me otherwise".

I'm currently trying to refine my c-bets though because I have been overbetting the pot quite frequently which was OK at SNG's but is just plain suicide in ring games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silu_nz

I'm currently trying to refine my c-bets though because I have been overbetting the pot quite frequently which was OK at SNG's but is just plain suicide in ring games.

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Overbetting the pot is +eV in a SnG?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silu_nz

I follow a simple rule. Do not c-bet against 3 or more players.

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I think thats a bad rule.

There's alot of times where I'm comfortable c-betting into 3+ players.

It really just depends on your opponents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Werddown

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silu_nz

I follow a simple rule. Do not c-bet against 3 or more players.

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I think thats a bad rule.

There's alot of times where I'm comfortable c-betting into 3+ players.

It really just depends on your opponents.

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Well I could always sign off any post in this forum with "depends on your opponents". That sounds perhaps a little bit miffed but poker is not just a game against bots but against real people. If everyone would play the same way it would be quite a boring game. Of course I make exceptions but I believe that for beginners it is easier to follow some simple rules.

Also in reply to a poster above. After re-reading and applying HOH I more and more belief that a 1/2 - 3/4 pot bet can have the same outcome as a pot bet. Over the long run it will save you chips. All I was saying was that I got away with it in SNG's but got hurt badly in ring games.

I found a pretty good system on c-betting,

1. Always c-bet a standard amount, i feel that 3/4 pot works good , tho on a ragged flop ill bet closer to the full size of the pot to make it seem as if im protecting a small over pair.

2. Dont cbet oop multiway unless you have a strong draw

3. dont cbet if there are more than 3 players involved.

4. dont cbet into a calling station

While I understand that some people advocate cbetting into a multiway pot I have found it to be a poor strategy. That being said, i raise 4bb+1 for each limper preflop so I usually find myself heads up on the flop. With strong preflop betting you can narrow down the number of players involved, increasing the potency of your cbets. Make sure you are raising at least the pot preflop.

Also dont feel obligated to cbet. If you KNOW that you are going to get call, feel free to take a free card.

check flops with good hands sometimes too

yeah ive found that works sometimes, especially in a situation where you have raised preflop with A trash to see the blinds,, flop comes A K 2, if u bet the flop only hand tha calls ou beats you. but my checking the flop u might get action from a king or mid pp. I still wouldnt make a habit of this and would never do it with any obvious draws on the board or multiway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

check flops with good hands sometimes too

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Yep, I have noticed at low limits that the player after you who overbets the pot is most likely to be paying off to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silu_nz

but I believe that for beginners it is easier to follow some simple rules.

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Maybe for someone who JUST heard about the game of poker.

I'm not a fan of following rules when learning about a game like poker. It is so complex and situational that the quicker you learn to adjust to the game dynamic, the faster you'll become a winning player. It also gives you a greater understanding of the concept as a whole, if you are forced to think about it and draw up your own conclusions.

I don't even like it as a "general" rule. Situations come up constantly where I'm c-betting into multiple opponents. Plus, it teaches them to be more passive rather than aggressive. Even if its not correct to c-bet the flop, I think they benefit more from being aggressive and learning from their mistakes, seeing what types of hands people are showing down when they get called, taking notes, making adjustments, ect. Most new players are faaaaar too passive to begin with.

Not to mention some people will accept things as fact if they read them somewhere, and continue making errors well into the future until they realize that they should deviate from the rule sometimes. I think you'd be better off just explaining the concept. Let them tool around with it rather than making it easy on them and having a set rule to follow. Let them think about it a bit and draw up their OWN rules. That way you arent the bad guy when they find out its not correct strategy to never c-bet into 3 or more opponents. lol.

Plus, I was more making that post for you, rather than the poster, because you said that it was a simple rule that YOU follow.

Oh, and "It depends on your opponents" gets said so much because, well, its true. I could add "If they're TAG, bla bla blabla, If they're LAG, bla bla bla bla." But most of the time "it depends on your opponents" is the only thing that needs to be said, because the adjustments are implied.

I dont agree with established rules either, but telling someone not to c-bet 40 dollars into a 48 dollar pot where 4 people called your 10 dollar raise preflop, and you have two overcards, Id think its safe to say this is a fold very time.

In fact, i hate playing multiway pots so much that id be willing to make the statement id rather miss a flop completely then hit top pair in a 5 way pot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by izybx

telling someone not to c-bet 40 dollars into a 48 dollar pot where 4 people called your 10 dollar raise preflop, and you have two overcards, Id think its safe to say this is a fold very time.

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I "generally" hate this play. Especially OOP.

yeah ive found that works sometimes, especially in a situation where you have raised preflop with A trash to see the blinds,, flop comes A K 2, if u bet the flop only hand tha calls ou beats you. but my checking the flop u might get action from a king or mid pp

I have had problems with this concept for a long time. I'm totally not saying it's wrong; I'm just saying I don't know how to play it. Let's say we check with A2 on an AKx flop, and the villain bets. What now? Are we just going to call down/hope he checks the turn, which we then presumably bet? Or do we hope to see a showdown as quickly as possible?

The way it instinctively seems to me is that I will bet my A2 on an AKx flop and then I will slow down if called. This way I pay one bet more for the information I need and don't spew away chips on further streets where I don't know where I stand. Most of the time, I take the pot down then and there, which is fine too.

So the how often is everyone betting after a PFR?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

Always c-bet in postion...

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I think this is a leak

In general, the more FE you have the more likely you should be to cbet and vice versa.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jager

So the how often is everyone betting after a PFR?

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Depends on your FE (Fold Equity). It's better to bet a flop like A72 rainbow than a flop of 678 suited.

First of all i wouldnt be raising with ace 2 unless i was in position.

Lets say i raise the button and i get called by the big blind, and the flop comes AK3 rainbow. The big blind checks. Uusally i am betting this flop, but lets say im mixing it up because i have stolen the blinds the last three orbits. So I check.

Turn is an eight. Big blind leads with 3/4s pot. Against a solid player I would give a nice reraise. He will let you know whether or not you are beat, because as a thinking player, he is worried about what you are sitting on. If he reraises, or calls only, but leads strong on the river you know your ace is no good. If he calls only, checks on the river, then I would check back, figuring the only hand that can call me beats me.

Against a LAG who overvalues his hands, i would call only (maybe think for 5-6 seconds first), and then call whatever he puts out on the river (maybe not all in, unless he was really bad). But I would call up to the pot easily, and in my experience (against a very loose LAG) youre going to see a king a lot of the time.

As a rule tho I would prefer to bet the flop to see where I stand. The above is guidelines for playing against certain styles of play when your image is that of a blind thief.

If I flopped top pair with a two kicker in an unraised, multiway pot I like to lead the pot, and hope to take it down right there, If the whole table had limped preflop and its a six way pot, i might not even play the hand period, id check fold the flop. If it checked around then id see what the turn looked like and take it from there. I am NEVER check calling top pair 2 kicker in a multiway pot tho.

The upside about leading the pot with weak top pairs, and then allowing yourself to be pushed off on the turn is that when you do flop a nice hand out the blinds, say top two or trips, and lead out, people cant give you credit for a great hand. I know some regulars who never lead oop into a multiway pot unless they have nuts or close to it, and have made easy laydowns of tpgk only to see them show down a monster.

So I hope that helps a little bit.

1. Bet
2. Check
3. Bet
4. Sometimes bet, sometimes check
5. Bet
6. Bet (although I can see check/folding at stakes below $100NL)

For an idea of how often to bet after raising pre-flop, see TerryToma's recent checkup post in the detail section. He follows through with bets more often than I do and it looks to be working for him. I'm gonna tweak this knob for a while and see what happens.

1. 1$
2. 1$
3. 2$
4. 1$
5. 1$
6. 1$

I think that I am now a better player than I was when I replied to the OP and do not agree with what I wrote myself anymore. I will c/bet at least 80% of my hands when I was the one who did the raising pre-flop. It would have to be one hell of a scary board for me not to c/bet anymore.

In the case of the original post I would have c/bet every time and agree with TerryToma about the amounts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silu_nz

I think that I am now a better player than I was when I replied to the OP and do not agree with what I wrote myself anymore. I will c/bet at least 80% of my hands when I was the one who did the raising pre-flop. It would have to be one hell of a scary board for me not to c/bet anymore.

In the case of the original post I would have c/bet every time and agree with TerryToma about the amounts.

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I like betting pot after a reraise preflop, it reps an overpair.